[reefkprZ]

your pretty much right on with what I was thinking except I didn't mean to imply the particular strains that didnt wind up dominant dying off was bad. I was more thinking that they may more efficient than a more dominant strain.

After hearing you spell it out for me, about it not really mattering which strain/s dominate because your cycle continues uninterrupted, and the system balances various strains reaching equilibrium and co-existing, the loss of a few strains or the couple strains going dormant wont really make a difference.

Its pretty much the conclusion I think I would have wound up with on my own. It has definatly been helpful to discuss this with you as way of confirming and disavowing ceartain thoughts that may have taken me many more months to hash through on my own while sifting through "myth-information" and trying to sort fact from fiction.

I have to say no matter how long I am in this hobby I relearn everyday how much more there is to learn. Thanks for taking the time to hash through this a bit with me.

Now about skimmers, in your opinion, when running a light bioload on a full blown reef thats well established, do you think they are worth the loss in trace elements that we fight so hard to maintain? Just a parting thought for the night, i have to go watch a movie with the future wife now.

[ShaunW]

Quote: Originally Posted by reefkprZ Now about skimmers, in your opinion, when running a light bioload on a full blown reef thats well established, do you think they are worth the loss in trace elements that we fight so hard to maintain? Just a parting thought for the night, i have to go watch a movie with the future wife now.

THANKS! I am enjoying thinking about these things also.

Rethinking about the bacteria and skimmer question has made me figure out a fool proof way to answer the question whether skimmers remove bacteria and how efficiently they do it.

Without a doubt a skimmer is a valuable tool. I wouldn't run a reef tank without one. It is just too hard to regulate the input of nutrients to the utilization of nutrients by the system. Aquarists will always provide too much nutrients. Organic waste need to be removed, and there is no better way than foam fractionation. I am a big fan of water changes, on my reef I do 40% changes once a month, restoring trace elements.

Why? are you thinking about running skimmerless? because doing so would make excessive nutrient export much more difficult than not running a skimmer.

[clownlover]

i have to say that i run what i think is very light skimming now ( a remora on a 125G). i used to skim heavier but same thign happend to me, my skimmer broke and i was reading bout alot of people going skimmerless so i decided to try it. shaun is def right as far as exporting of excess nutrients but i do think my corals are "happier". pretty much everything in my tank is splitting / growing like crazy (i dont have sps though) although i do have to say that i have to watch how i feed and the lighting. it seems that running my tank the way i do it is more sensitive to changes, i.e. i recently added 1.5 hours onto my light cycle and it resulted in an algae bloom. when i ran a better skimmer that never happend, i used to play with photoperoids all the time. i guess you have to do what works for you in the end.

shaun, the tanks u did the plankton analysis on, did they feed phtyo to their tanks? if no, would that make a difference if they did u think?

	SPS Small Polyped Scleractinians - Sometimes known as Small Polyped Stony corals. These are hard corals that have extremely small polyps. They are typically on the difficult side and require Metal Halide lighting or dense Power Compact or T5 arrays. These corals are prized for their rareness and ability to be easily fragged into multiple colonies.

[reefkprZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by ShaunW Why? are you thinking about running skimmerless? because doing so would make excessive nutrient export much more difficult than not running a skimmer.

a little side info on my tank:75g DT 30g sump 150lbs LR ssb display dsb sump, age 1 year 3 months since last move, but total tank age is about 3 years. skimmer 220g capacity, 5 types macro algae in sump. 440w VHOlighting 14hour on 10 off cycle

I'm definatly not considering going skimmerless, my feeding habits wont allow it even with my 25% waterchanges once a week and 50% once a month. I feed my tanks 5-7 times a day of various food. (there is more fish/coral coral food in my feezer and in my fish closet than most people own peole food) I firmly believe a lot of the corals in our systems are malnourished/underfed due to our inability to properly export the by products, true rapid growth can only be acheived by providing the proper diet for all these critters, damn hard to acheive when the by products of half of what they need for optimal growth would crash most systems because we cant get rid of the waste/unconsumed foods before it breaks down, this is where having diverse microfauna and my insane waterchange ritual as well as far overskimming my tank comes into play.

Basicly the whole basis of the conversation was on the fact that I WAY over skim and was wondering if I was doing detriment to ceartain populations of microfauna and bacteria by way overskimming, but the overall conclusion I have drawn is any detriment is negligable compared to the benifit of removing excess micro foods and waste before they break down, and contribute to pollution.

I just like hearing other peoples thoughts on similar subjects who have many years expirience, its easy for a newer hobbyest to say "skimmers are good" but when asked why you get the standard answer "because they are, they remove protiens" probably 70% of the hobbyest in their first year dont realize skimmers are exceedingly efficient at removing calcium too (among other elements), which is one of the elements we strive to maintain, often with difficulty when running a heavy scleractinian or clam dominated reef.

I have considered adding an algal scrubber, and an (this one will make a few people cringe) aiptasia race way filter thats UV sterilized on the output. so i can increase my feeding even more. my color and growth rates already are far beyond what most peole around here get. I have seen my frags after 6-8 months in other peoles tanks they dont look as good or seem to grow as fast for other people. there are some exceptions about maintaining color, but often the difference is very clear.

there is a tank nearby (newtoit knows the tank I speak of) it has 2x250w halides, in thory that lighting should be better than my 440w vho , all his SPS brown out, I bought an ugly brown acropora from him and its now a bright green highlighted purple. this of course hinges on many factors, good light bulbs, proper nutrient levels, proper trace etc. but within 2 months the corals turn around is mindblowing.

often peole who try to mimic my feeding habits or even feed once a day end up with horrible algae problems and I have no nuisance algae to speak of (what I am stating here is that my grazer crew can easily handle the growth of algaes in my display, not that it doesnt form). by feed my tank i dont mean feed my fish 5-7 times a day, I am feeding lots of micro foods, cyclops, dapnhia, home made foods, several algae foods, and so on rotating what gets fed to ensure if something doesnt utilize a ceartain food it doesnt have to wait long to get one it can.

free floating bacteria is also a food I want available to my corals so if skimming is a serious detriment to free flating bacteria I would consider, shutting down my skimmer for one day a week then kicking up the sand bed to send bacteria into the water column to make the bacteria available for the corals that consume it. before restarting the skimmer. (now this is again where your opinion really makes a difference for me) I have no way of guaging or knowing how much the overskim capacity diminishes the free floating bacterial levels in the tanks overall volume, if you were to say its most likley negligable I would continue to leave my skimmer running while I kick up my sand bed, if you thought that it reall cut down on the available bacteria I would probably shut my skimmer down 50% of the time when i was kicking up my sand bed. I stirr up my sand bed to release detritus for filtration too, so I would let it skim every other time I stirr my sand bed.

what are your thoughts on that?

	SPS Small Polyped Scleractinians - Sometimes known as Small Polyped Stony corals. These are hard corals that have extremely small polyps. They are typically on the difficult side and require Metal Halide lighting or dense Power Compact or T5 arrays. These corals are prized for their rareness and ability to be easily fragged into multiple colonies.

	VHO Very High Output Fluorescent Lighting - Fluorescent bulbs that run on special ballasts and have an output that is significantly higher than normal tubes. It is very possible to run an entire reef system on VHO lighting providing the proper number of bulbs and mixture of spectrums are chosen. For most hobbyists, these tubes are used in conjunction with Metal Halide lighting for simulating dawn and dusk. They often provide the "bluer" end of the light spectrum and thus a more aesthetically appealing display.

[jhale]

reefkprZ, you stir up your DSB? I was always under the impression one should never touch a DSB.

When you say that you "WAY over skim" how do you know it's too much?
From your description of feeding it sounds like you need a larger skimmer.
I'm happy to read your feeding your tank, so many reefers tend to starve their tanks to try to control algae. I follow a similar feeding schedule and have a rather large skimmer for my tank now. It's my opinion that you can't over skim a tank. This is based on using a normal sized skimmer. Of course if your skimmer holds 10X the volume of your tank water, over skimming may apply

I would not worry about a skimmer removing trace elements. I think the trace elements are used up rather quickly by the coral in the tank. Finding a good brand of additives and sticking to a dosing regimen is just part of feeding the tank.

There are some great tanks with no skimmers, but they employ other methods of nutrient removal. Your algae scrubber idea could work, but you would have to size it appropriately, the larger the better. The idea of using aiptasia to filter the water has always been interesting, but who has done research as to how many aiptasia you need? I had a huge aiptasia problem in my system, I can't say I saw a decrease in water quality when I finally eradicated them. I think you would need a massive amount of them to make a dent compared to what a decent skimmer can do. If you like I'll be happy to supply you with some starter aiptasia, I believe there are still some lurking in my sump

[reefkprZ]

no I dont touch my DSB, I leave that to my critters to maintain. in my display the SSB I stir constantly to feed my corals and re-suspend detritus.

honestly by the term "way overskim" I just mean use a larger than rated skimmer and skim fairly wet. I dont think its actually ODing on skimming. its just an expression. kind of as a means of comparison to those who get the exact size for their tank (wich I think companies overestimate the capacities for their products any how).

Quote: I think you would need a massive amount of them to make a dent compared to what a decent skimmer can do.

yup picture a race way filter with 12 feet of raceway (4 feet by three turns with three surfaces in each pass) with egg crate "barriers" every 4 inches along the lengths(perpendicular to the side walls), every surface completly covered with aiptasia, that would be thousands of aip and millions of stinging fronds to capture particles. I would suggest that this would be one efficient means of capturing any organic particles to float through.

[clownlover]

i agree. aiptasia is probably not the way to go and it will be hard to keep it out of ur display. i think people use xenia for this aswell and it might be a better choice. about corals picking up the trace elements before the skimmer, i dont know. to be sure i shut my skimmer off for a bit when i dose ( i dont dose often though). but i have to say i dont do many water changes. once a month 10% or so. i have a dentritrator on my system, as well as a uv steralizer a tiny fuge and plenty of live rock. i like the natural approach i think.

[jhale]

I see, sorry I thought the DSB was in the display. stirring a SSB to clean it is cool.

It would be interesting to see the results from a biological Aiptasia filter. If you attempt it please track the results. I imagine after a year you would see a marked difference.

Perhaps an algae scrubber in tandem with and Aiptasia Nutrient Neutralizer would be a good combo. Throw in an area for cryptic sponges and your all set.

[reefkprZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by clownlover i agree. aiptasia is probably not the way to go and it will be hard to keep it out of ur display. i think people use xenia for this aswell and it might be a better choice. about corals picking up the trace elements before the skimmer, i dont know. to be sure i shut my skimmer off for a bit when i dose ( i dont dose often though). but i have to say i dont do many water changes. once a month 10% or so. i have a dentritrator on my system, as well as a uv steralizer a tiny fuge and plenty of live rock. i like the natural approach i think.

people who use xenia use it to absorb dissolved nitrogens in situ, I want to use aip to capture particles before they breakdown into soluble components.

the way to prevent it spreading back into the display would be with a very HIGH powered UV on the return line at a very slow rate of flow therefore killing any cells or offspring that could cause an infestation in the tank.

I'm obviously going to have to do some research to figure out how much exposure to UV it will take to completly eliminate the risk of it spreading back into the tank.

aip as a filtration is not a novel Idea I believe Anthony Calfo mentions it in one of his books (at least I think it was Calfo I'll double check that I dont want to misquote) let me check my reference books and I'll get back on that.

[reefkprZ]

OK it was Anthony Calfo that I first heard it from (wheather he originated the idea or not I dont know)

Page 38 in the book: "Book of coral propagation volume 1 version 1.0" shows an image of nutrient scrubbing raceway, and on the following page he explains how to use aiptasia as a natural "scrubber" as they are voracious filter feeders and would be a great method of cleaning for tanks that have high input of foods such as baby brine rotifers and other microfoods. I'll do a direct quote from the book here

Quote: Anthony Calfo: The book of coral propagation, volume one, version 1.0 "Unwanted populations of Aiptasia that grow in display aquaria can be problematic as they compete for food and space and may injure other invertabretes with their stinging tentacles. In a remote downstream vessel, however, they may perform as an efficient living mechanical filter"

I have been mulling this idea over for well over a year and am not about to run blind into a method that will plauge my display with a nuiscance.