[jackson6745]

This might be a stupid question but I have been wondering how much biological filtration is needed for a reef. I know that nitrifying bacteria lives on rock, sand, or any other surface area in different quantities but how much is actually needed to complete the nitrogen cycle? If I started a reef with no rock and a skimmer would I always have ammonia + nitrite? Would it work?
I don't have a great understanding of the scientific background of the hobby so I need some guidance.
In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water???

Someone steer me in the right direction.....Paul, Shaun, Dave???

[jhale]

well I guess with enough flow and a big enough skimmer you could remove the waste before it has a chance to pollute the tank.


"In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water"

I just had a conversation with dave today about this. I think I'm too tired to explain it correctly, I'll let him do it later it was something like the fish poo feed the bacteria that break it down, and the coral will feed on that bacteria. there is a lot more too it, lol

[griMReefer]

id never trust skimmers alone-- do they remove organic solids, not ammonia and other dissolved fluids (fluids meaning other aqueous and gaseous compounds not suspensions)? i think not. as far as i know, the general rule of thumb for reefs is 1-2 lbs of rock per tank gallonage. as for the bio chain its the bacteria are needed in order to quickly convert the ammonia (excrement) and other waste (elimination, poop) that the fish and other non-photosynthetic are constantly putting out, into nitrites that are less toxic and can be utilized by coral unlike nitrate which is poisonous to them? or something like that.

[nanoreefer22]

Quote: Originally Posted by griMReefer id never trust skimmers alone-- do they remove organic solids, not ammonia and other dissolved fluids (fluids meaning other aqueous and gaseous compounds not suspensions)? i think not. as far as i know, the general rule of thumb for reefs is 1-2 lbs of rock per tank gallonage. as for the bio chain its the bacteria are needed in order to quickly convert the ammonia (excrement) and other waste (elimination, poop) that the fish and other non-photosynthetic are constantly putting out, into nitrites that are less toxic and can be utilized by coral unlike nitrate which is poisonous to them? or something like that.

Times have changed, skimmer is king ....took the place of the sandbed, kinda.

[ShaunW]

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 This might be a stupid question but I have been wondering how much biological filtration is needed for a reef.

Simple answer: the more the better. In a real reef the biological filtration is enormous, nothing goes to waste and everything is recycled. The biological buffering capacity of a reef ecosystem is one of the true biological marvels of the earth. In our tanks, the greater ability to replicate the same thing, the better the health of the tank. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a miniscule amount of water and biological diversity in our aquariums. We deal with this using mechanical filtration.

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 I know that nitrifying bacteria lives on rock, sand, or any other surface area in different quantities but how much is actually needed to complete the nitrogen cycle?

The greater input of nutrients (food) that you import into the tank that doesn't get consumed and recycled, the greater about of live rock is need to act as a biological buffer for that food. Live rock contains more than just bacteria, all the pods, worms etc provide a nessesary service in the breakdown of unwanted nutrients. Live rock is the sanctuary for these important middle managers of the reef.

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 If I started a reef with no rock and a skimmer would I always have ammonia + nitrite? Would it work?

Nitrate and ammonia would be unmanageable. The tank would fail miserably, very quickly.

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 I don't have a great understanding of the scientific background of the hobby so I need some guidance. In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water??? Someone steer me in the right direction.....Paul, Shaun, Dave???

HTH, I need to finish my line of reasoning in the nitrate thread, since some important later parts to the puzzle are still missing and haven't been discussed. The bold statement that I highlighted isn't correct Rich.

[jackson6745]

Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

[nanoreefer22]

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing?

My interest is sparked.

[jackson6745]

Quote: Originally Posted by nanoreefer22 Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing? My interest is sparked.

you can pee in the tank (for you Herman)

I guess you can just introduce a source ie feed the tank.

[ShaunW]

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson6745 Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

I've done this. Algae takes over, filling in for the missing bacteria and lack of biological filtration.

[ShaunW]

Quote: Originally Posted by nanoreefer22 Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing? My interest is sparked.

The bacteria come from in the air, dust and from the surrounding room. Even when you put your hand in the tank your inoculating the tank with bacteria.

Many of the nitrifying bacteria in an aquarium are present in the natural environment, i.e. Pseudomonas species.