[LeslieS]

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Foreword, Introduction, and Chapter One Introduction
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[digitalreefer]

Quote: Originally Posted by TimberTDI We can warn all we want, some people just won't listen. How many people have we seen come on this board, ask advice, when they don't get the answers they want, they go ahead and do it anyway. Steven

Until they certify every reefer, we can only help people who want help. This does mean the death of some livestock unfortunately.

[Domboski]

Quote: Originally Posted by TimberTDI We can warn all we want, some people just won't listen. How many people have we seen come on this board, ask advice, when they don't get the answers they want, they go ahead and do it anyway. Steven

It just doesn't seem fair to restrict people who have the abilities to care for a species because some people do not take the advice of others and cause harm to animals. There is people who buy red ear sliders (turtles) who are hardy animals and kill them because they don't know how to take care of them. Should these species be restricted as well?

Now I'll contradict myself , some animals that get too big should be restricted like Nurse Sharks. They are commonly available but get to 10 - 15 feet. You need permits to keep some exotic species maybe that is an avenue to explore for some of the more difficult fish to keep. There is probably no 100% "cure" though.

[ellebelle]

Well, some Nurse Sharks are also on the IUCN red list, so I think they should be restricted PERIOD (http://app.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/prsharksandtiger.pdf).

Actually, there's a very good report entitled: Collection of coral reef fish for aquaria: global trade, conservation issues, and management strategies. (http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf)" It sort of expands on some of the issues that Fenner brings up.

I think part of what this discussion touches upon is what makes a "advanced" oir "difficult" fish. i.e.: I have a mandarin. I know he eat pods, and I know that my responsibility is to provide him with said pods. Does the fact that he eat a particular item which may or may not be available in certain aquaria make him a difficult to care for pet? If your aquariaum has enough pods, a mandarin is actually one of the EASIEST fish to care for.

If I really wanted a bitterfly that ate coral polyps, does that make him difficult? I would say no. It just makes him EXPENSIVE.

[Domboski]

Quote: Originally Posted by ellebelle Well, some Nurse Sharks are also on the IUCN red list, so I think they should be restricted PERIOD (http://app.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/prsharksandtiger.pdf). Actually, there's a very good report entitled: Collection of coral reef fish for aquaria: global trade, conservation issues, and management strategies. (http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf)" It sort of expands on some of the issues that Fenner brings up. I think part of what this discussion touches upon is what makes a "advanced" oir "difficult" fish. i.e.: I have a mandarin. I know he eat pods, and I know that my responsibility is to provide him with said pods. Does the fact that he eat a particular item which may or may not be available in certain aquaria make him a difficult to care for pet? If your aquariaum has enough pods, a mandarin is actually one of the EASIEST fish to care for. If I really wanted a bitterfly that ate coral polyps, does that make him difficult? I would say no. It just makes him EXPENSIVE.

The nurse shark in that article is a different species of the nurse that is commonly available. The Nurse shark from Florida (Ginglymostoma cirratum) is the one commonly available. I disagree that all nurse sharks should be restricted. One that is not commonly available (for lack of knowledge) is the short tailed nurse shark (Pseudoginglymostoma brevicaudatum) only gets about 30". That is smaller than some bamboo sharks commonly kept in aquariums.

I think your Mandarin example is perfect. How many times do we see posts of dying or dead Mandarins when they should be one of the easiest fish to keep if you have the proper set up? There was a time when people said you can't keep them because they die which is completely false. If people made a concsious effort to explain "why" the fish can be difficult to keep rather than say "No", the hobby would benefit greatly and so would the fish!

[ellebelle]

I didn't mean all nurse sharks should be restricted - I just meant that the ones that were on the red list should be restricted. I don't have a problem with keeping sharks in aquaria provided that the person who buys them has done the appropriate research. So I think we're in full agreement, Dom!

[Domboski]

Definately. I am a little sensitive to that subject mainly because I keep sharks and also that nobody would have an aquarium if someone didn't give it a try.

I am looking forward to reading on!

[Froggie]

Great beginning post Leslie.

A few of my own thoughts about the Introduction before I address the issues that have come up.

Fenner gives a very realistic presentation on why aquarists do what they do. For the right reasons and the wrong reasons. It's nice to hear from a person that knows what he's talking about, been in the business since the get-go, and advocates proper care-taking of marine life. It all boils down to his definition of being a "concientious" aquarium hobbyist. What I got from this intro are:
1) People get into things for the wrong reasons, and continue to make wrong choices due to unawareness and/or misinformation.
2) Being a concientious hobbyist forces us to address some alarming issues
3) It's best if we work as a community to force change in the unethical practices of this hobby

Now, back to Domboski's point about being allowed to keep any animal if one can properly provide for it. I admire your dedication and ability to provide for any and all the animals you take under your care. However, realistically, not many hobbyist are like you. If it were so, Fenner wouldn't have needed to write this book in the first place. Granted, things have gotten better (I think) since his writing of the book. My only concern is that others look at your example and think they can do the same (I really don't want to get too into this point b/c the debate can go on forever).

I find that as individuals we tend to be brash and make dumb decisions, but placed in an community environment, we don't make those dumb decisions for fear of being frowned on, scolded. So what's my point? Point someone out if they're doing something wrong, inform them, offer alternatives/solutions, and if they persist, tell them off. Seriously, it works. Tough love.

Thanks Veronique and Leslie for bringing up the topic of fish/coral collection. I didn't know too much about the subject...but now I'm learning .

P.S. - I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've join the site. Why? Because part of the joy in keeping a reef tank is being able to share it. Shared experiences, shared information not only help us better the hobby, but also allow us to better enjoy the hobby.

[Domboski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Froggie Great beginning post Leslie. A few of my own thoughts about the Introduction before I address the issues that have come up. Fenner gives a very realistic presentation on why aquarists do what they do. For the right reasons or the wrong reasons. It's nice to hear from a person that knows what he's talking about, been in the business since the get-go, and advocates proper care-taking of marine life. It all boils down to this definition of being a "concientious" aquarium hobbyist. What I got from this intro are: 1) People get into things for the wrong reasons, and continue to make to wrong choices due to unawareness and/or misinformation. 2) Being a concientious hobbyist forces us to address some alarming issues 3) It's best if we work as a community to force change in the unethical practices of this hobby Now, back to Domboski's point about being allowed to keep any animal if one can properly provide for it. I admire your dedication and ability to provide for any and all the animals you take under your care. However, realistically, not many hobbyist are like you. If it were so, Fenner wouldn't have needed to write this book in the first place. Granted, things have gotten better (I think) since his writing of the book. My only concern is that others look at your example and think they can do the same (I really don't want to get too into this point b/c the debate can go on forever). I find that as individuals we tend to be brash and make dumb decisions, but placed in an community environment, we don't make those dumb decisions for fear of being frowned on, scolded. So what's my point? Point someone out if they're doing something wrong, inform them, offer alternatives/solutions, and if they persist, tell them off. Seriously, it works. Tough love. Thanks Veronique and Leslie for bringing up the topic of fish/coral collection. I didn't know too much about the subject...but now I'm learning . P.S. - I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've join the site. Why? Because part of the joy in keeping a reef tank is being able to share it. Shared experiences, shared information not only help us better the hobby, but also allow us to better enjoy the hobby.

Good post Froggie. A few people let me know that showing my tank could lead to people trying it without the means. Its unfortunate that I can't enjoy my tank and share it with others because of the potential ramifications but I certainly understand. Someone bashed me on my thread and apologized through PM after realizing my plans and how I care for these animals.

I take the good with the bad though and a lot of people have reached out to me for advice on how to better care for some of their animals and that makes it worth the little heat I do take. I know that their animals are getting better care then they may have otherwise.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything (hence joining the Book club).

Good summary of the Intro too!

[Froggie]

Quote: Originally Posted by Domboski ...a lot of people have reached out to me for advice on how to better care for some of their animals and that makes it worth the little heat I do take...

Cool ! You're part of the solution, not the problem, brotherman.

[Henrye]

The issue of responsibility in the care for marine life as a hobby reminds me of the practices I see in the purchase and care of other "pets". How many people, on the spur of the moment, walk by a pet store and see a cute puppy and decide they want a dog. Right then. Right now. They usually have only limited knowledge, at best, of the breeds requirements, and buy from pet stores without any understanding of the source, not infrequently, a puppy mill which breeds for volume, allowing genetic defects to be passed along revealing themselves as dogs that have excessive illnesses, and are kept, prior to sale in poor conditions.

So the puppy goes home, after paying an outrageous amount of money for it, starts barking and eliminating on the floor and furniture, and then starts chewing through drywall. That poor dog's next home is likely to be a shelter, hopefully one that does not euthanize.

That is not to say many of us grew up with dogs and cats, and are well aware of the responsibilities involved, and have some familiarity with the breeds we keep. However, not everyone adopts a pet with such open eyes.

Caring for a marine aquarium is more complicated by a magnitude of difference, as well as ongoing costs to provide proper care and maintenance. While the typical impulse purchase at a Petco will likely be for a fresh water fish tank, which can be one, more forgiving, and two, more likely to have access to readily aqua-cultured stock, the marine aquarium doesn't provide for much leeway in lazy care, and does, although less and less, rely on removal of animals and fish from the natural reef.

In the perfect world, a responsible fish store would make a customer take home a book before a tank. Unfortunately, that is not the real world, and there's no point pretending otherwise. I think the best that can be achieved is by people committed to SW aquaria standing by to offer help, opinion, and advice to those newbies like me. Granted, some won't listen, and some won't even bother to ask. That shouldn't change our behavior in doing the best we can for our own reefs, as well as trying to answer questions of others should they take the time to ask.

I do believe that some collections and species can benefit from the least restriction necessary to protect the reef and fish. No one can stop a person from buying difficult to care for fish and coral, but, by placing even voluntary controls, hopefully some of the horror stories we read about of improper care and unnecessary losses can be controlled.

Henry