The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Introduction - Page 4

LeslieS · 03-11-2007, 09:36 AM

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Foreword, Introduction, and Chapter One Introduction
...

Harif87 · 03-12-2007, 04:12 PM

I just want to say that although if noone ever tried and failed they wouldnt be anyone keeping aquariums today we cant promote the failure. Which means we cant encourage newbs to start out with nano tanks and such since theyre more likely to fail. On the other hand we also cant tell them that they CANT keep a nano or a coperband butterfly as their first fish because everyone has the right to the pursuit of happieness as long as it doesnt infringe on other people's rights....

The thing is that although the ocean is vast and contains thousands of fish, we are also a vast group of people who keep a net of thousands of fish. If we all failed just once, and thus killing our livestock, who says that there will be enough livestock for our children to enjoy?

**jhale** · 03-12-2007, 08:45 PM

guys please keep the thread on topic, off topic posts will be deleted, thanks.

LeslieS · 03-12-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:


	I thought it was interesting that he worked as “a consultant and buyer for the mass-merchandiser PetCo in their bid to upgrade their stores, incorporating livestock.”

Quote:


	Unfortunately, there is a cost associated with MAC certification and it's not cheap.

I went to PetCo today, and the sales associate, who is very nice and helpful, did not know how the fish were collected. The fish experts comes in on Wednesday's at noon. I would like to find out if the fish expert knows how the fish are collected and is PetCo MAC certified? Even if it is expensive, they are big enough to afford it.

Quote:


	guys please the thread on topic, off topic posts will be delteted, thanks.

ummm...Yeah! What he said!

LeslieS · 03-12-2007, 09:50 PM

I really like that people are referencing other sources and using them as part of the discussion.

Book Club is AWESOME!!!!!

p.s. I have started reading everything with a highlighter in one hand :-)

sarahandkevin · 03-12-2007, 10:02 PM

The author is completely correct that the all mighty dollar is the only way to make change in this world. And that applies to all aspects of life.

Concerned about global warming killing coral reefs- it is our responciblity to buy lower fuel cars. Dont run your dish washer at peek hours, turn lights off, use biodegradable soaps, recycle, buy recycled. etc etc etc.

When people walk into stores they trust that the government would not permit X to be sold if it was bad. Sadly there are still areasol cans and other environmentally haszardous products are still being sold. It is our responciblity to put our dollar behind companies and stores that have good ethics-even if it costs us extra money to do so.

Support stores that insist that the staff be knowledgeable and give good advice the costumers. We may know the answers and could go find a cheeper source- but it might be better to support the stores that pay well and educate employees.

I purchased an orchid from a fancy florist. They handed me a care sheet for the type of orchid I purchased. Many products have instructions associated with them and at least a warning lable on them. It would be a wonderful idea if fish sellers were required to include a care sheet for each kind of fish for sale.

I refuse to shop at Walmart- they may be the cheepest but the company's business practices are horrifing. It is my job as a consumer to research and put my dollar behind it. Governing law makers do not care about animal rights more than commerce (just look at the food industry).

I would like that care sheet very much. I am not intereseted in purchasing an item that I will not be successful with. The easier for me to find the information about what would be good for my ablities the better I can make choices for myself. Care sheets would also mean that even stores that do not have a trained staff can still give out the information. It would be a low cost item to institute. Law makers might go for it.

I very much would like to get a yellow tang - but every single sourse around me has made it transparent to me that it would mean blood shed in my tank. Good to know. I am also glad to hear certain things would be a challenge, why, weight it and decide for myself. I am also told certain things are completely out of my leage at this stage and I am happy to not get them. Access to information is the key.

If everyone knew just how bad certain things were- the disappearing shoppers dollar would put it out of business.

Not that information will solve all the issues that we disagree with choices that are made. For instance I know it is better to purchase a mutt dog 1)mixed breeds are stronger health wise 2)lots of dogs in kennels need a home. 3)demands on pure breed lines can put lead to unethincal breeding practices. But weighted out the pros and cons and I bought my pure bred dog anyways. and balence my karma out by donating money to no-kill shelters every year.

My main comment about the book so far... would be it needs photos by Jhale in it.

**ellebelle** · 03-12-2007, 11:15 PM

It's interesting that you mention a care sheet, as the PetCo I went to in California (aside from being FAR BETTER MAINTAINED than the petcos in Manhattan) had care sheets for different animals. Just goes to show that just because one store in a chain is bad doesn't mean they are all bad.

For those that may be interested, here is the link for more about the IUCN red list:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/

If you want to find out if a fish you are interested in it on the red list, I recommend doing a basic search and typing in the genus name. For instance, if you type in "centropyge", the only species that is on the redlist is the Resplendent Pygmy Angelfish. It's listed as vulnerable. So, if it were me, I would never request one of these fish. (As it happens, they aren't supposed to be collected and they now have aquacultured ones, but as an example....)

I know Fenner didn't discuss this explicitly, but I think knowing how endangered your fish in your little glass box are is also part of being conscientious.

**jhale** · 03-12-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harif87


	On the other hand we also cant tell them that they CANT keep a nano or a coperband butterfly as their first fish because everyone has the right to the pursuit of happieness as long as it doesnt infringe on other people's rights....

would this not go against being a conscientious aquarist? I feel the opposite, we can and should tell new hobbyists not to keep difficult specimens.

It's because of the people who have pioneered the hobby that we have the knowledge we do today. this knowledge should be used, shared, and taught to all those who enter the hobby. The knowledge helps prevent mistakes others have made, and should be used to give the absolute best care we can to the animals we choose to keep.

My definition of a conscientious aquarist is a person who understands what being in the hobby means to the reefs that we collect our creatures from.

a quote from Fenner -

"The word conscientious is derived from the latin roots for with (con) and to know (scire). Being conscientious as a marine aquarist means being an informed, intelligent consumer. More than that, it also implies a level of faith in the hobby and a deep affection for the environments we seek to mimic in miniature. It means taking certain responsibilities seriously and doing things right. both for our own peace of mind and the well-being of our captive charges."

I would prefer if he had placed taking care of the animals before being an informed consumer, but at least they are both mentioned.
I've been in the marine hobby since '85. I was lucky, I started out buying from some great stores owned by people who cared about the animals they sold. I never got bad advice from them, and they helped guide me along the way.
We are now lucky enough to have the internet, and the message boards such as Manhattan Reefs. They are such a great way to spread this wealth of knowledge
let's just make sure we do so in a responsible way

**jhale** · 03-12-2007, 11:34 PM

FYI, this is a good thread discussing fish collection and the MAC process.
Both Joe and Sean are in the industry and had some interesting things to say.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/...ollection.html

**Domboski** · 03-12-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellebelle


	It's interesting that you mention a care sheet, as the PetCo I went to in California (aside from being FAR BETTER MAINTAINED than the petcos in Manhattan) had care sheets for different animals. Just goes to show that just because one store in a chain is bad doesn't mean they are all bad. For those that may be interested, here is the link for more about the IUCN red list: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ If you want to find out if a fish you are interested in it on the red list, I recommend doing a basic search and typing in the genus name. For instance, if you type in "centropyge", the only species that is on the redlist is the Resplendent Pygmy Angelfish. It's listed as vulnerable. So, if it were me, I would never request one of these fish. (As it happens, they aren't supposed to be collected and they now have aquacultured ones, but as an example....) I know Fenner didn't discuss this explicitly, but I think knowing how endangered your fish in your little glass box are is also part of being conscientious.

This may be for another thread but I found it interesting that the Blue Ribbon Eel was not on the list but the Coral Catshark was. Coral Catsharks have been bred succesfully in captivity but 95% of the Blue Ribbon Eels die because they will not eat in captivity and there is several publications on their conservation and expert's concern for their future. Even the Yellow Stingray was on the list (also breeds in captivity). There wasn't a lot of concrete info why they were on the list. In fact, for the two examples I chose, it seemed speculatory.

I am not against the list just wondering what the criteria is. According to Fenner's definition of "difficult to keep", I feel the Blue Ribbon Eel fits the bill and the Coral Catshark does not. The IUCN Redlist seems to have a different criteria for including a species on the list. Is it simply related to how they are collected?

prattreef · 03-13-2007, 12:08 AM

Lissa, no need to ask Petco if they are MAC certified. They are not. The fact is only about 4-5 stores ( the last time i looked) in the ENTIRE COUNTRY are MAC certified. A handful of wholesalers too. Their certification project and ability to supply the industry in any meaningful way with "clean fish" has by any objective standards been an abject failure.

The good news is that there are other locally based operations in the PI. ( Cebu) and Indonesia that are converting divers to net collecting that are beginning to provide a wider range of responsibly collected fish to the industry. Accurately identifying which fish these are at the hobbyist or even wholesale level is another matter.

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03-11-2007, 09:36 AM
LeslieS Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manhattan Posts: 1,946 Reefer Ratings: (9) Friends: (11)	The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Introduction The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Foreword, Introduction, and Chapter One Introduction ... Click here to read the entire Last edited by Josh; 03-20-2007 at 02:25 PM.

03-12-2007, 04:12 PM
Harif87 Lets Go Rangers Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 434 Reefer Ratings: (9) Friends: (0)	I just want to say that although if noone ever tried and failed they wouldnt be anyone keeping aquariums today we cant promote the failure. Which means we cant encourage newbs to start out with nano tanks and such since theyre more likely to fail. On the other hand we also cant tell them that they CANT keep a nano or a coperband butterfly as their first fish because everyone has the right to the pursuit of happieness as long as it doesnt infringe on other people's rights.... The thing is that although the ocean is vast and contains thousands of fish, we are also a vast group of people who keep a net of thousands of fish. If we all failed just once, and thus killing our livestock, who says that there will be enough livestock for our children to enjoy?

03-12-2007, 08:45 PM
jhale paper bags are fun! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: G.V NYC Posts: 15,307 Reefer Ratings: (43) Friends: (32)	guys please keep the thread on topic, off topic posts will be deleted, thanks. Last edited by jhale; 03-12-2007 at 09:27 PM.

03-12-2007, 09:50 PM
LeslieS Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manhattan Posts: 1,946 Reefer Ratings: (9) Friends: (11)	I really like that people are referencing other sources and using them as part of the discussion. Book Club is AWESOME!!!!! p.s. I have started reading everything with a highlighter in one hand :-)

03-12-2007, 10:02 PM
sarahandkevin forever noob Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens NY Posts: 267 Reefer Ratings: (6) Friends: (1)	The author is completely correct that the all mighty dollar is the only way to make change in this world. And that applies to all aspects of life. Concerned about global warming killing coral reefs- it is our responciblity to buy lower fuel cars. Dont run your dish washer at peek hours, turn lights off, use biodegradable soaps, recycle, buy recycled. etc etc etc. When people walk into stores they trust that the government would not permit X to be sold if it was bad. Sadly there are still areasol cans and other environmentally haszardous products are still being sold. It is our responciblity to put our dollar behind companies and stores that have good ethics-even if it costs us extra money to do so. Support stores that insist that the staff be knowledgeable and give good advice the costumers. We may know the answers and could go find a cheeper source- but it might be better to support the stores that pay well and educate employees. I purchased an orchid from a fancy florist. They handed me a care sheet for the type of orchid I purchased. Many products have instructions associated with them and at least a warning lable on them. It would be a wonderful idea if fish sellers were required to include a care sheet for each kind of fish for sale. I refuse to shop at Walmart- they may be the cheepest but the company's business practices are horrifing. It is my job as a consumer to research and put my dollar behind it. Governing law makers do not care about animal rights more than commerce (just look at the food industry). I would like that care sheet very much. I am not intereseted in purchasing an item that I will not be successful with. The easier for me to find the information about what would be good for my ablities the better I can make choices for myself. Care sheets would also mean that even stores that do not have a trained staff can still give out the information. It would be a low cost item to institute. Law makers might go for it. I very much would like to get a yellow tang - but every single sourse around me has made it transparent to me that it would mean blood shed in my tank. Good to know. I am also glad to hear certain things would be a challenge, why, weight it and decide for myself. I am also told certain things are completely out of my leage at this stage and I am happy to not get them. Access to information is the key. If everyone knew just how bad certain things were- the disappearing shoppers dollar would put it out of business. Not that information will solve all the issues that we disagree with choices that are made. For instance I know it is better to purchase a mutt dog 1)mixed breeds are stronger health wise 2)lots of dogs in kennels need a home. 3)demands on pure breed lines can put lead to unethincal breeding practices. But weighted out the pros and cons and I bought my pure bred dog anyways. and balence my karma out by donating money to no-kill shelters every year. My main comment about the book so far... would be it needs photos by Jhale in it. __________________ 30G Planted FW, 120g SW SPS & LPS, 12G FW guppy tank with tacky castle

03-12-2007, 11:15 PM
ellebelle Lissa Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Upper East Side Posts: 2,231 Reefer Ratings: (16) Friends: (12)	It's interesting that you mention a care sheet, as the PetCo I went to in California (aside from being FAR BETTER MAINTAINED than the petcos in Manhattan) had care sheets for different animals. Just goes to show that just because one store in a chain is bad doesn't mean they are all bad. For those that may be interested, here is the link for more about the IUCN red list: http://www.iucnredlist.org/ If you want to find out if a fish you are interested in it on the red list, I recommend doing a basic search and typing in the genus name. For instance, if you type in "centropyge", the only species that is on the redlist is the Resplendent Pygmy Angelfish. It's listed as vulnerable. So, if it were me, I would never request one of these fish. (As it happens, they aren't supposed to be collected and they now have aquacultured ones, but as an example....) I know Fenner didn't discuss this explicitly, but I think knowing how endangered your fish in your little glass box are is also part of being conscientious. __________________ Reef tanks are a cruel mistress. My 75g Tank! 40br Upgrade(ran 12/07 - 9/08) 29g Tank Log (ran 11/06 - 12/07)

03-12-2007, 11:34 PM
jhale paper bags are fun! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: G.V NYC Posts: 15,307 Reefer Ratings: (43) Friends: (32)	FYI, this is a good thread discussing fish collection and the MAC process. Both Joe and Sean are in the industry and had some interesting things to say. http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/...ollection.html

03-13-2007, 12:08 AM
prattreef Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 2,968 Reefer Ratings: (17) Friends: (15)	Lissa, no need to ask Petco if they are MAC certified. They are not. The fact is only about 4-5 stores ( the last time i looked) in the ENTIRE COUNTRY are MAC certified. A handful of wholesalers too. Their certification project and ability to supply the industry in any meaningful way with "clean fish" has by any objective standards been an abject failure. The good news is that there are other locally based operations in the PI. ( Cebu) and Indonesia that are converting divers to net collecting that are beginning to provide a wider range of responsibly collected fish to the industry. Accurately identifying which fish these are at the hobbyist or even wholesale level is another matter.