[Thales]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

I would actually put all cephalopods on program that I outlined before. The flams and the zebras are just the more visible animals, but there is still a niche market for all cephs.

Cephs are at an interesting stage in the hobby. Many people will 'give them a try', but most have no idea or interest in doing what actually needs to be done to keep them longish term (they only live about a year anyway). So, they get imported and either languish to death in LFS or go to inappropriate aquaiums. Since the market for people who actually want them is small, I am confident that we could place a small total allowable catch in proper homes promoting the PNG project as something that actually cares about the animals after collection rather than the current status quo.
I think the current state of ceph keeping and the PNG project happen to time our perfectly to make an actual difference in the hobby, and am very excited about moving forward.

As Steve and I and Gresham have discussed many times, collecting to order for all MO animals would be the best way to go, but given the current market, such a venture in general would not be able to compete price wise.

[clarionreef]

Hmm,
In the economy of scale that makes any enterprise such as this work, serious exporter and importer professionals have to be involved, interested and make money.
Thats simply the way our economy and society work. Indeed, without the exporters incentive and interest in starting the business from that side, there is little to talk about much futher as nothing would ever leave PNG without them.
Permits and fish export laws will not even go forth without a reasonable expactation of routine and growing commerce.
Breaking thru with the airlines on viable frieght rates is only possible beause of the promise of fairly routine frieght tonnage. A great deal of what importers import is based upon experience and understanding of what sells...the past week, the past month etc.
The 'collect to order' thing is only possible with modest outfits that can survive on niche marketing and small orders. The elite tastes that our hobby develops in some areas, is enabled by much, much greater commerce in the more general list of livestock from abroad.
In order to even see the really cool stuff, we have to move a lot of coral beauties, sleeper gobies, scooter blennies, lionfish etc.
To be sure, the market has many levels and sidebars. But it is the mass of the more predictable, commonly sold product that allows us the big opening to challenge and pressure the cyanide trades predominance in our industry.
We have to make it easier for consumers to choose clean, netcaught fish as the norm and that comes from giving them no other choice. In PNG cyanide fish or otherwise "improper items and unsustainable " will not be allowed to develop to confuse the w/ proper choices. Then finally people can choose "wisely" without even knowing that much about the subject.
We will not be dependant upon the consumers to drive sustainable practice.
Why delegate so much power to a marketplace that tolerated a cyanide trade for 40 years?
If they had their way, would they accept cyanide fishing in PNG as they did so nonchalantly in Bali?
No ...the grand marketplace will not be given the choice.
You know why?
Because unlike the current marketing situation in the Philippines and Indonesia,
there is no such thing as a "professional option" between sustainable choices or unsustainable ones....if it ain't sustainable we are all finished soon anyway!

Its time to buy the nets soon as the new trainings start within a month and we have to buy it and ship it still.
Sincerely, Steve

[GreshamH]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef Hmm, In the economy of scale that makes any enterprise such as this work, serious exporter and importer professionals have to be involved, interested and make money. Thats simply the way our economy and society work. Indeed, without the exporters incentive and interest in starting the business from that side, there is little to talk about much futher as nothing would ever leave PNG without them. Permits and fish export laws will not even go forth without a reasonable expactation of routine and growing commerce. Breaking thru with the airlines on viable frieght rates is only possible beause of the promise of fairly routine frieght tonnage. A great deal of what importers import is based upon experience and understanding of what sells...the past week, the past month etc. The 'collect to order' thing is only possible with modest outfits that can survive on niche marketing and small orders. The elite tastes that our hobby develops in some areas, is enabled by much, much greater commerce in the more general list of livestock from abroad. In order to even see the really cool stuff, we have to move a lot of coral beauties, sleeper gobies, scooter blennies, lionfish etc. To be sure, the market has many levels and sidebars. But it is the mass of the more predictable, commonly sold product that allows us the big opening to challenge and pressure the cyanide trades predominance in our industry. We have to make it easier for consumers to choose clean, netcaught fish as the norm and that comes from giving them no other choice. In PNG cyanide fish or otherwise "improper items and unsustainable " will not be allowed to develop to confuse the w/ proper choices. Then finally people can choose "wisely" without even knowing that much about the subject. We will not be dependant upon the consumers to drive sustainable practice. Why delegate so much power to a marketplace that tolerated a cyanide trade for 40 years? If they had their way, would they accept cyanide fishing in PNG as they did so nonchalantly in Bali? No ...the grand marketplace will not be given the choice. You know why? Because unlike the current marketing situation in the Philippines and Indonesia, there is no such thing as a "professional option" between sustainable choices or unsustainable ones....if it ain't sustainable we are all finished soon anyway! Its time to buy the nets soon as the new trainings start within a month and we have to buy it and ship it still. Sincerely, Steve

Who are you directing all that to?

To be clear, when you say:

Quote: Why delegate so much power to a marketplace that tolerated a cyanide trade for 40 years?

Are you saying "the market place" as in the buyers or sellers? I have never heard a single consumer ask for a juiced fish, nor any LFS, however, I have heard some praise of juice from importers and exporters alike. Seems to me the juiced fish have ben pushed on the market for 40 years. No one markets juice fish to the hobbyist or the LFS. No hobbyist or LFS has any way of telling what is a juiced fish other then some ones word on it. There is no stateside test. There is a test on the export side that requires the use of the whole fish and it can be diverted by simply flushing the fish out in a ocean holding pen prior to allowing it to be tested. Until the day fish are taken from the DIVER, not from the exporter, I don't think that test is very "solid". The fact of the matter is, the wholesalers make the choice to whom they buy their fish from.

[GreshamH]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef Thanks guys. I thought the flambouyant cuttlefish and the wonderpus would wake people up!

Wait, just Rich and I are the ones that replied in regards to them. Are you saying Rich and I weren't jazzed prior to this post? My support as well as Rich's came months ago

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef We can ban many species but then they are not bestowed with value. A small , legal allowable export number gives them value and a legal mechanism to control the take.

Stated Japanesse Whaling Commission Spokesperson Steve Robinson

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef Would there be enough contributions from you guys to compose one? It needs about 20 items to fill out a nice poster as the fish one did. More comments? We welcome lots more consciousness raising, consensus building inputs as a matter of routine evolution in tne PNG PROJECT! Sincerely, Steve

Quote: We will not be dependant upon the consumers to drive sustainable practice.

????? Pick one

[Chiefmcfuz]

Lets keep this on topic. If there is other subject matter that needs to be covered another thread can be started with the click of the mouse

[jhale]

yes, lets keep personal issues out of the thread, however the information on collecting is valid and should be heard.

[clarionreef]

It ain't personal. He was just waking us up after New Years.

A few million hobbyist never asked for cyanide fish?
How did they get here with this issue being so public for decades now?
Even people who don't have aquariums have heard of it!
But its true, when the retailer says..."Oh that, they solved that years ago"...the plausible deniability is there and is apparently good enough for everyone.
A few million consumers of shrimp, wild salmon, tuna and sea turtles never asked for depletion and destruction either...they never do. They just want to consume, buy and deny.
Isn't that the way the system works?

The numbers taken by the Japanese are not small and not driven by science but a corruption of it.
The Macaw tribe in Neah Bay takes small numbers of whales...ie. 1 or 2 or 3. Thats not the Japanese commercial fleet at all.
I've been to Neah Bay...not much to do there. Few jobs ...too far for a casino!
Pehaps the traditional whaling permits should be bought out.

The legalization of small numbers of say, wonderpus allow breeders to have a shot at producing them in captivity. You know this already and are being a smarty-pants.

Asking egg heads ie. knowledgeable reefsfolks to contribute to a list of inverts to slow down on or ban is not driving sustainablity but contributing to the development of a program that is.
The mass market that drives the reef trade is hardly represented by the smaller elite whose brain trusts we respect and want to tap into.

Go hang out at the fish section of any of the thousands of petcos and see where we are not going for suggestions.

Comon, what else ya got?
Happy New Years ...
Steve

[GreshamH]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chiefmcfuz Lets keep this on topic. If there is other subject matter that needs to be covered another thread can be started with the click of the mouse

And how pray tell was that not on topic? Topic is the project is it not? Do you want Steve to post his stuff for replies in other threads? I am not goint to start a thread to reply to post in another thread, that's a great way for it never to be seen or replied to.

[GreshamH]

Quote: Originally Posted by jhale yes, lets keep personal issues out of the thread, however the information on collecting is valid and should be heard.

Personal issues? What? Did you think that joke was an attack? Sorry you viewed it that way.

Just so you know the know, Steve happens to be a VERY close friend of mine. He's been a mentor of mine for a decade. He's also my only ex-boss I utterly respect. He knows my comment was fully in jest, and he knows my references to the bone.

[prattreef]

Let's see if we can bring this back to the specifics of the PNG project (yes I see the relevance and interest and import of the current discussion), but I fear lots of others don't. So, let me ask a few questions that have been asked of me in private:

1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right?

2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection?

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.

4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself.

Please answer these in as straightforward and detailed manner as you can-- no need to rehash the failures of the past --- just the on the ground facts and future intentions.

Thanks. Randy