A Great Opportunity for the Community to Give Back - Page 7

GreshamH · 01-02-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarionreef


	It ain't personal. He was just waking us up after New Years. A few million hobbyist never asked for cyanide fish? How did they get here with this issue being so public for decades now? Even people who don't have aquariums have heard of it! But its true, when the retailer says..."Oh that, they solved that years ago"...the plausible deniability is there and is apparently good enough for everyone. A few million consumers of shrimp, wild salmon, tuna and sea turtles never asked for depletion and destruction either...they never do. They just want to consume, buy and deny. Isn't that the way the system works? The numbers taken by the Japanese are not small and not driven by science but a corruption of it. The Macaw tribe in Neah Bay takes small numbers of whales...ie. 1 or 2 or 3. Thats not the Japanese commercial fleet at all. I've been to Neah Bay...not much to do there. Few jobs ...too far for a casino! Pehaps the traditional whaling permits should be bought out. The legalization of small numbers of say, wonderpus allow breeders to have a shot at producing them in captivity. You know this already and are being a smarty-pants. Asking egg heads ie. knowledgeable reefsfolks to contribute to a list of inverts to slow down on or ban is not driving sustainablity but contributing to the development of a program that is. The mass market that drives the reef trade is hardly represented by the smaller elite whose brain trusts we respect and want to tap into. Go hang out at the fish section of any of the thousands of petcos and see where we are not going for suggestions. Comon, what else ya got? Happy New Years ... Steve

Wasn't the Macaw tribe the one that use AK's to hunt the first whale years back and sunk it with out capturing it?

We've been asked to keep this one on track Steve. Let's respect Jhales wishes and we just talk on the phone and email like we always do, or take it to RDO

They just want info about the netting project it in this thread. You, as well as me, sure don't see how this is not connected, but we've spent a very long time on the issue and understand it far better then 99.99% of the trade.

One thing though, I have it it a thousand times from hobbyist and retailers alike that they "thought" the problem had been taken care of years ago. They aren't aware the efforts of many have failled. You are, I am, they aren't

I have global contact with hobbyists and LFS and I hear the same tune over and over. Being I know the details I eduacate them as I go along, but I am just one man in an ocean of people

prattreef · 01-02-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreshamH


	One thing though, I have it it a thousand times from hobbyist and retailers alike that they "thought" the problem had been taken care of years ago. They aren't aware the efforts of many have failled. You are, I am, they aren't I have global contact with hobbyists and LFS and I hear the same tune over and over. Being I know the details I eduacate them as I go along, but I am just one man in an ocean of people

This is something I would like to see fully discussed ( calmly

)here on MR, but I suggest a different thread. RD

ShaunW · 01-02-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreshamH


	Let's respect Jhales wishes and we just talk on the phone and email like we always do, or take it to RDO They just want info about the netting project it in this thread. You, as well as me, sure don't see how this is not connected, but we've spent a very long time on the issue and understand it far better then 99.99% of the trade.

Hi gentlemen,

.

I am finding your posts extremely enlightening and am enjoying reading your discussion and would be saddened if you discontinued it.

clarionreef · 01-02-2008, 01:47 PM

See...
You know this already and are being a smarty-pants.

GreshamH · 01-02-2008, 01:53 PM

Good use of the smilies Steve

Your getting better at using them

I know more can come out of our friendly banter then can arise from most questions asked by posters, but let's respect what Jonathan and Randy have asked of us

Tell you what though, it's kinda cool to see Solbby posting in this thread

GreshamH · 01-02-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prattreef


	This is something I would like to see fully discussed ( calmly )here on MR, but I suggest a different thread. RD

oops, I didn't put the word "heard" as in "I have heard it a thousand times"

Unfortunately I do not have the time nor bandwidth to start and carry on such a thread right now

One thing that would be a great way to let the readers know more would be to ask Steve for an article (or series of articles) on the subject for the MR magazine

KathyC · 01-02-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prattreef


	Let's see if we can bring this back to the specifics of the PNG project (yes I see the relevance and interest and import of the current discussion), but I fear lots of others don't. So, let me ask a few questions that have been asked of me in private: 1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right? 2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection? 3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future. 4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself. Please answer these in as straightforward and detailed manner as you can-- no need to rehash the failures of the past --- just the on the ground facts and future intentions. Thanks. Randy

I'm not sure if this post was missed with the bantering, but I'd also like to know the answers to this.
As many of us here are quite interested in the work you are doing and following the thread, along with donating funds for the cause, I have to say I was surprised to have not receive a response from Graham a week or so ago when I wrote to ask where I should send my donation to.
Perhaps an answer to that could also be posted here?
Thxs

clarionreef · 01-02-2008, 02:17 PM

1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right?

The government accepted a proposal by Eco Ez to open it up so long as its done right with government oversight. To this end, even the EcoEz staff offices are in the fisheries building.

2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection?
The local people already fish the reefs, already hear about live food cyanide fishing and already hear one scheme after another to use their reefs.
If they don't benefit from it, others try to ...so this project works with them directly and develops their capacity to manage the thing themselves.
Trainers will also be generated from PNG and no Filipino collectors or foreigners will ever be allowed to work in the place of a local as is the case in Tonga and Vanuatu where most of the fish collectors are Filipinos that I trained before.

3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future.
We will ride herd on them for 3 years straight. We have veto cabability for any totally untrainable knuckleheads who break the coral in collecting.
But seriously. There are few bad students...only bad teachers.
The entire permitting scheme with the government is linked to the training and the passing the training.
Fishes will be linked to catch totals and if the TACS [Total Allowable Catch] is reached, the collection of said fishes are disallowed until the next year.
Surveys and monitoring are a three times a year component to check the impacts...if any on the reefs.
The greatest assurance is an honestly and competently run program...of actual, genuine monitoring and training to prevent the result of incompetent, office based, city based, "theoretical" programs that have predictably failed before.
Although money is always an issue it is not the only issue and not to the obssessive extent that it has been with previous non aquarium groups that have lorded over the industrys response to reform for some 20 years now.
We are mainly fish folks!
4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself.

The EcoEz org has a president ; David Vosleer, an ast director and accountant; Tony Carmel,
Reef monitoring and Survey team run by Renabte Ruz and the training team run by me with my old comrades in training long ago. MeMe Purgatorio fresh from managing a Tonga export facility and divers for a year and a half now and another; Eddie Abulag running collections in Vanuatu.
Locally the survey team has a lady reef diver Selma and her counterpart, Phillip. They anchor the local team and help build it up more.
Government fishery extention officers are enlisted to provide legal and official entry into the collecting villages that want and need the businesses very much.
Steve

clarionreef · 01-02-2008, 02:20 PM

Perhaps the funds are best collected by the club .
Then the clubs wields the bigger donation at one time and bargains with its power.
When its all collected...soon....
It can then be sent a to the hdqrs of EcoEz in Alexandria Virginia.
They reciept and account for everything there...and will write a nice thank you letter as will I .
Then....the images from the field can come forward soon after the first training begins!
Steve

GreshamH · 01-02-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KathyC


	I'm not sure if this post was missed with the bantering, but I'd also like to know the answers to this. As many of us here are quite interested in the work you are doing and following the thread, along with donating funds for the cause, I have to say I was surprised to have not receive a response from Graham a week or so ago when I wrote to ask where I should send my donation to. Perhaps an answer to that could also be posted here? Thxs

It's Gresham

I have no connection to the NGO other then knowing the players and program. You should have directed your question to Steve

I'm sorry if you posted it and I didn't say that. If you PM'd me/ IM'd me, Blackberrried me, it most likely will never get a reply as I really try not to use those and do everything via email only for record keeping sake. If you did email me, it either got caught up in our spam server or lost into vaporspace. With +15K spams a day, our email server does on occasion nab non spam as well.

EDIT: you sent me the PM saturday the 29th. It's still sitting there unread.

01-02-2008, 01:53 PM	#65
GreshamH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Posts: 147 Reefer Ratings: (0)	Good use of the smilies Steve Your getting better at using them I know more can come out of our friendly banter then can arise from most questions asked by posters, but let's respect what Jonathan and Randy have asked of us Tell you what though, it's kinda cool to see Solbby posting in this thread __________________ ________... Gresham _________________________________... Feeding your reef...one polyp at a time

01-02-2008, 02:17 PM	#68
clarionreef Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 40 Reefer Ratings: (0)	questions 1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right? The government accepted a proposal by Eco Ez to open it up so long as its done right with government oversight. To this end, even the EcoEz staff offices are in the fisheries building. 2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection? The local people already fish the reefs, already hear about live food cyanide fishing and already hear one scheme after another to use their reefs. If they don't benefit from it, others try to ...so this project works with them directly and develops their capacity to manage the thing themselves. Trainers will also be generated from PNG and no Filipino collectors or foreigners will ever be allowed to work in the place of a local as is the case in Tonga and Vanuatu where most of the fish collectors are Filipinos that I trained before. 3) What is/will be done to insure that the operation is carried out responsibly into the future. We will ride herd on them for 3 years straight. We have veto cabability for any totally untrainable knuckleheads who break the coral in collecting. But seriously. There are few bad students...only bad teachers. The entire permitting scheme with the government is linked to the training and the passing the training. Fishes will be linked to catch totals and if the TACS [Total Allowable Catch] is reached, the collection of said fishes are disallowed until the next year. Surveys and monitoring are a three times a year component to check the impacts...if any on the reefs. The greatest assurance is an honestly and competently run program...of actual, genuine monitoring and training to prevent the result of incompetent, office based, city based, "theoretical" programs that have predictably failed before. Although money is always an issue it is not the only issue and not to the obssessive extent that it has been with previous non aquarium groups that have lorded over the industrys response to reform for some 20 years now. We are mainly fish folks! 4) Who are the stake holders/ adminstrators etc. besides yourself. The EcoEz org has a president ; David Vosleer, an ast director and accountant; Tony Carmel, Reef monitoring and Survey team run by Renabte Ruz and the training team run by me with my old comrades in training long ago. MeMe Purgatorio fresh from managing a Tonga export facility and divers for a year and a half now and another; Eddie Abulag running collections in Vanuatu. Locally the survey team has a lady reef diver Selma and her counterpart, Phillip. They anchor the local team and help build it up more. Government fishery extention officers are enlisted to provide legal and official entry into the collecting villages that want and need the businesses very much. Steve

01-02-2008, 02:20 PM	#69
clarionreef Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 40 Reefer Ratings: (0)	Perhaps the funds are best collected by the club . Then the clubs wields the bigger donation at one time and bargains with its power. When its all collected...soon.... It can then be sent a to the hdqrs of EcoEz in Alexandria Virginia. They reciept and account for everything there...and will write a nice thank you letter as will I . Then....the images from the field can come forward soon after the first training begins! Steve Last edited by clarionreef; 01-02-2008 at 02:36 PM. Reason: another thought

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01-02-2008, 01:47 PM	#64
clarionreef Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: San Francisco Posts: 40 Reefer Ratings: (0)	See... You know this already and are being a smarty-pants.