[prattreef]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef 1) 2) Why not leave a pristine reef alone? or Does it make sense to start a collection venture in a "pristine" area with no history of collection? The local people already fish the reefs, already hear about live food cyanide fishing and already hear one scheme after another to use their reefs. If they don't benefit from it, others try to ...so this project works with them directly and develops their capacity to manage the thing themselves. Trainers will also be generated from PNG and no Filipino collectors or foreigners will ever be allowed to work in the place of a local as is the case in Tonga and Vanuatu where most of the fish collectors are Filipinos that I trained before. Steve

So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?

It makes perfect sense to provide local populations with sound economic alternatives that are truly locally controlled, but something must have changed if this hasn't been an issue until now.

RD

[prattreef]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef 1) Whose idea was this? The government of PNG seeking to open a MO fishery and seeking to do it right, or were they approached by MO types seeking to move into a new area and do it right? The government accepted a proposal by Eco Ez to open it up so long as its done right with government oversight. To this end, even the EcoEz staff offices are in the fisheries building. Steve

1) Clearly, Government oversight and regulation of such a project is critically important to its success, but in the past, in other areas, Government oversight has become Gov't. corruption which has helped undermine other efforts. What is different in the PNG scenario?

2) What is Eco EZ's mission? For profit or philanthropic? RD

[Slamajamajama]

seems like a big "sell" to me, just for the humane collection of a "pristine" reef...why? ...now i dont want to be hypocritical and say i would not purchase from this region and im sure the effort is honest, but why should i or we donate capital for some1 else to make huge profits in the long run...and if any1 is offended too bad, its a forum to discuss all aspects...you want money, then u have to pony up the answers and they better be good.
is there a direct benefit to MR members, not just to give MR a sponsorship?

wheels seem to always fall off a bandwagon...

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[clarionreef]

"So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?"

Civilization is coming ...civilation is coming!
Now that Papua New Guinea has been a tourist destination for jet set divers ...a mining and timber country and a lobster and tuna country....for quite some time.... the experience with world commerce has helped open the eyes of a new generation of educated local people and they are driving PNG to lot of places quickly.
This momentum is building and if you want to keep it clean, you have to imprint people on better, sustainable ways from the very beginning.

Pristine reefs do exist there to be sure, but thats away from the villages for the most part and beyond where the village fishers can even go.
Why?
Because each village has its own territorial limit and cannot infringe on the neighboring villages reefs. Each village area has a collection management plan that forbids collecting beyond the boundary anyway.
Unlike the Philippine and Indonesian examples, [ where everyones mindset on this stuff comes from] the traditional village boundaries extent into the ocean in PNG limiting fishers to the finite square miles in their own back yards which must be taken care of so not to suffer depletion and destruction of the more advanced collecting societies.
Cyanide and coral destruction would be worse here as there would be no passage to other peoples reefs or to those pristine ones.

What we really have is a "pristine system" that can and should be spread to other countries. Especially countries where they have made a mockery of their own fisheries sector, laws and so called management schemes.
The for profit part of this is for the exporters to make whoever they may be...so long as they operate within the laws we take part in creating , monitoring and if need be revoking.
The law against ruining corals to collect will be a new mandate...a new standard that everything plays off of. Everyone in the chain will be guilty as the fishers contract and collect for the exporter who is willing to buy their fish and help set them up. Fishers and the exporter will work it more like in most countries where they depend on each other and not in the wild open flea market system of the Philippines and Indo.
It is the actualization of the oft theorized vertical integration of the chain of custody. Ie. staff divers working for and with the buyer who must work for and with the collector.
Coral breaking and poisoning threatens the permits upon which he activity depends and the exporter will have to work to keep his staff clean as well.
Anyone wanna be an exporter? anyone?
We at Eco Ez are a non profit org working as consultants for the government. We don't sell fish.

Steve

[KathyC]

Quote: Originally Posted by GreshamH It's Gresham I have no connection to the NGO other then knowing the players and program. You should have directed your question to Steve I'm sorry if you posted it and I didn't say that. If you PM'd me/ IM'd me, Blackberrried me, it most likely will never get a reply as I really try not to use those and do everything via email only for record keeping sake. If you did email me, it either got caught up in our spam server or lost into vaporspace. With +15K spams a day, our email server does on occasion nab non spam as well. EDIT: you sent me the PM saturday the 29th. It's still sitting there unread.

Sorry about getting your name wrong Gresham
I didn't realize you didn't have a formal connection to the program especially since you have been so helpful in expanding the knowledge here regarding it's mission.

I appreciate your response and the clarification that Steve has provided regarding the collection of the funding the MR members have offered. The purpose of my request was to make it easier for members to donate, give you guys a bump with a post and thereby showing support for this project. Looks like that backfired...

Perhaps Randy (? hint - hint) can make the arrangements for where MR members should send donations?

..and Gresham (woo-hoo..got it right this time!) that is a serious overload of spam. I feel for 'ya!

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[clarionreef]

Mountain reef
I am far more suspicious, cynical and jaded on phoney non-profit scams then you will ever be.
Ask around!
I have seen 4-5 groups skim money for this kind of thing since 1981...[ subject for another thread] and been a whistle blower all my life fighting in a cycle of opposition most of the time.
Thats why I am so well suited to this particular assignment.
Steve

[Slamajamajama]

steve u have 12 posts on the board most just on this thread, why keep pressing...my nostrils are flared....im suspicious of any1 trying to feed me with a shovel than with a spoon
mike

[prattreef]

Mike,
It was suggested to Steve that MR was an interesting and forward looking Community ( among others) to approach about supporting this venture from the hobbyist side. I and others in the commmunity are excited by the potential and interested in participating. He has been encouraged to post here and share his considerable experience and expertise with us. There are many legitimate questions to be asked surrounding this complex undertaking, and I doubt he will shy away from any of them.

I see no pushing here other than the fact that there is a timeline by which the nets need to be purchased and delivered to PNG.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[jhale]

Quote: Originally Posted by GreshamH Personal issues? What? Did you think that joke was an attack? Sorry you viewed it that way. Just so you know the know, Steve happens to be a VERY close friend of mine. He's been a mentor of mine for a decade. He's also my only ex-boss I utterly respect. He knows my comment was fully in jest, and he knows my references to the bone.

How would we know that was a joke?
I was not asking you to limit the information discussed in the thread, I was asking that it not deteriorate by name calling and fighting. Since you have set the record straight go ahead and make fun of each other all you want

I want to hear the info, the more the better in my eyes.

[prattreef]

Quote: Originally Posted by clarionreef "So are you saying that there is impending intrusion on these "Pristine Reefs" from other reef related industries and their very damaging practices? If so, what has kept them at bay all these years and what has changed to allow them to become a threat?" Civilization is coming ...civilation is coming! Now that Papua New Guinea has been a tourist destination for jet set divers ...a mining and timber country and a lobster and tuna country....for quite some time.... the experience with world commerce has helped open the eyes of a new generation of educated local people and they are driving PNG to lot of places quickly. This momentum is building and if you want to keep it clean, you have to imprint people on better, sustainable ways from the very beginning. Pristine reefs do exist there to be sure, but thats away from the villages for the most part and beyond where the village fishers can even go. Why? Because each village has its own territorial limit and cannot infringe on the neighboring villages reefs. Each village area has a collection management plan that forbids collecting beyond the boundary anyway. Unlike the Philippine and Indonesian examples, [ where everyones mindset on this stuff comes from] the traditional village boundaries extent into the ocean in PNG limiting fishers to the finite square miles in their own back yards which must be taken care of so not to suffer depletion and destruction of the more advanced collecting societies. Cyanide and coral destruction would be worse here as there would be no passage to other peoples reefs or to those pristine ones. What we really have is a "pristine system" that can and should be spread to other countries. Especially countries where they have made a mockery of their own fisheries sector, laws and so called management schemes. The for profit part of this is for the exporters to make whoever they may be...so long as they operate within the laws we take part in creating , monitoring and if need be revoking. The law against ruining corals to collect will be a new mandate...a new standard that everything plays off of. Everyone in the chain will be guilty as the fishers contract and collect for the exporter who is willing to buy their fish and help set them up. Fishers and the exporter will work it more like in most countries where they depend on each other and not in the wild open flea market system of the Philippines and Indo. It is the actualization of the oft theorized vertical integration of the chain of custody. Ie. staff divers working for and with the buyer who must work for and with the collector. Coral breaking and poisoning threatens the permits upon which he activity depends and the exporter will have to work to keep his staff clean as well. Anyone wanna be an exporter? anyone? We at Eco Ez are a non profit org working as consultants for the government. We don't sell fish. Steve

Thank you Steve for your thoughtful responses. I'm sure these answers lead to even further quetions. I hope others take the time to digest what you are offering up and further the converstion through additional questioning.