Bye Bye Skimmer, Hello Canister Filter

[tosiek]

reefkeeper, the vodka method you posted will keep your tank running for about 8-12 months before you start seeing negatives of starving your system and/or a massive crash. It works real well short term but you have to change the system to something that replaces all the nutrients your removing from your system as well as other things your 3 part vodka mix lacks.

Read the 50 posts on RC about it. =0) alot of unhappy reefers removing white SPS skeletons and starting from scratch because they went the easy way to vodka dosing long term.

The proven italian method involves ALOT of other things besides the sugar and vodka and a little vinegar. Its super regimented in things your dosing and invlves half Ml doses that can crash your tank.

Yes, your right it does work for a certain period of time. And the results are awesome. But, its not as simple/easy as the article you posted says, and beeing a long term disaster, you shouldn't be promoting it as you are. thats why everyones giving you problems.

 

[tosiek]

We've been running a cascade 1200 canister on a 75 gallon reef (soft corals only) for about two years, last year we added a refugium under the tank as well. In the canister we run activated charcoal, lots and lots of 100 micron filter pads which I buy in sheets and cut to size, and we have the ability to add any other filter media to the canister (such as phosban or any other). We are hardly "regular" about changing our filter media, unless you consider regular as about once every four to five months. Our soft corals and anemones do fantastic, especially when you consider that our water comes straight from the bathtub faucet (NO RO or RO/DI). I do have some algae growth on the glass and to keep it clear I scrape the glass every other day or so (not sure how often everyone else does that. Regular water changes of about 10 gallons every few weeks keep all the nitrates and phosphates in check.

What is "in check" for Po4 and No3 in your tank?

Bright Green algae on the glass is usually a good sign of high phosphates or you havent cleaned that side for a few months. Softies can tolerate some very bad conditions and survive so i wouldn't compare their health and success to where other peoples tanks should be at level wise or if your methods are successful. Im pretty sure you can throw some anthelia in your toilet bowl and it will overgrow the piping =0) If you had some more demanding LPS and SPS they wouldn't do so well in your tank.

 

[georgelc86]

Ok, get this, if he is going to clean the canister every weekend or every seven days then why are we all worried about the beneficial bacteria in the unit considering all of us here tell beginners to wait nearly 30 days to 3 months for a tank cycle. The way nature works is an awesome thing but I don't think that beneficial bacteria would populate enough in 7 days, especially anaerobic bacteria, to cause a massive world stopping tank crash. Not even an ammonia spike. If his canister filter is going to lead to increased nitrates that means the bacteria that consumes ammonia and the bacteria that consumes nitrites have adjusted and grown in population to compensate for the increase in ammonia which we all know leads to nitrates. Just a thought.

 

[aznt1217]

Hey Walter... I personally think canisters are great for filtration (logically speaking)-- but I would definitely change all the contents and stuff out to carbon and bioballs. I will be following this thread very closely because I am starting a new tank and want a canister.

Have you thought about a recirculating skimmer? Initially what I wanted to do for my setup is an Aquaripure denitrator (to handle nitrates and vodka dosing) and run a canister with Carbon in it (Chemi-pure elite) to clear the water and handle phosphates (there's ferric oxide in the chemi-pure).

 

[NYreefNoob]

and before you try to make other's seem like you know what your talking about or trying to make them feel dumb

As for Vodka dosing, I can't stress how much it has improved my tanks. My LFS had a pretty bad hair algae outbreak in its frag tank. There was huge growths of it everywhere. He had to remove everything. He tried algae blennies, crabs, slugs, nothing was getting rid of it fast enough. Finally, he tried vodka dosing and it completely cleared up within 2 weeks. Its great. I use Smirnoff triple distilled (80 proof).

sounds like your saying it kills algea,

I had a Solana that was running both canister and skimmer. I think the sump and skimmer idea creates much more of a natural approach rather than a mechanical. If algae was your reasoning for doin this, why not introduce an organic compound and vodka dose your tank? I've been vodka dosing my tank for about 3 months now and I don't have a speck of algae anywhere. No diatom, no hair, nothing. My algae blenny snails and crabs started to starve away. Phosphates are are at virtual 0 and I run my HQI for 12 hours a day. I think with the canister, your not pulling the organic debris from the water column so even if you clean it out once a week, you will always have organic decay virtually constant in the water column and you will notice a rise in your nitrates.

no diatom ? and you run mh 12 hr's a day ?

Vodka dosing also makes the water clearer than any carbon or canister can. Diatom free

vodka does not replace carbon and doesnt make the water clearer, it flash's the water giving you that hr or so of super crystal clear water. vodka isnt going to keep the yellow tint from the water like carbon and regular water changes

The ideology behind Vodka dosing is introducing an organic carbon rather than an inorganic carbon such as activated carbon media. Organic carbon compounds will bond to phosphates, nitrates, and virtually all debris, as the carbon molecule is one of the most volatile bonding agents in chemistry (i'm not a chemist but this is what I read and witness in my tank). When you Vodka dose properly (look it up on these forums) you will see your protein skimmer produce 2-3 times the amount of skimmate it normally does. This is why you have to monitor your SPS for bleaching because the water clarity becomes so clear that light penetration increases

all i was saying and on the vodka thread here as well i do not recommend it to people. most dont follow it or really understand it and what it does. you can't even really explain it but are advocating people to use it. not trying to bash back, and all i said was maybe you need to re-read it, because you gave alot of incomplete info and false info. btw i did vodka for 4 months and on brightwell for 2 or 3 now. now reefer what are else are you dosing to replenish whats being stripped ? and you didn't post that link to way later in the thread after giving all this other info which i in-correct

 

[ReeferMadness99]

The previous posts were more just dialogue. For example, I have always used carbon and continue to use carbon. But my tank has cleared up many times more after I dosed vodka (6 months and counting on a minimal dosage). Thats why I said vodka dosing clears your water more than carbon can.

It seems like your picking out individual quotes rather than digesting the entire conversation. Yes there are plenty of other supplements I dose my tank with (such as aminos, etc...) but this thread is about this guy going to a canister because of algae problems. Thats why I suggested vodka dosing at minimal levels. It would lower his nitrates and phosphates and he would no longer have the algae issues. This thread is not about how to vodka dose, what to supplement nor is it about posting your entire supplement & dosing routine, I was simply giving a proven way to reduce N & P.

Any post can sound like a person is saying anything (ie vodka kills algae) if you take that post singularly out of context. If you read my whole conversation, I never said Vodka kills algae, I never said Vodka replaces carbon. And after it was specifically asked How Do You Dose? Do You Have Any Reading On It? I replied with the article I read. Then you decided to bash on me 15 posts later with the things you said and posted the same exact reference link I did for people to read.

 

[BZOFIQ]

But if I remove all the waste from the canister filter when i clean it then there is no large bioload to have to break down.

so, you'll open the canister every 2 days or so? even then, think about all the gunk the bacteria was aleady able to process.

 

[BZOFIQ]

vodka dosing = tank on crack, think withdrawal symptoms. (not pretty)

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Here is a great quote from someone who Vodka doses.

"Hi & thank you for your response. I would never just jump into this without researching and goingly slowly and erring on the side of less is more. But from what I've read it can have some very good benefits. And frankly....as far as a tank crashing...just about anything can cause a tank crash. Salt water is a science and if you add too much or too little anything, it can cause a crash. Or if you're lax in your water changes, etc. and then there's always the mystery crashes where everything *seemed* fine and the tank crashes anyway. So the possibilty of a crash pretty much always exists and I don't think I'd let that fact alone stop me. but do know caution would be essential."

Switching from a protein skimmer to a canister seems like taking a risk too doesn't it? We all take calculated risks with our tanks but the important thing to remember is to research what your doing, MONITOR what your doing religously, and do whatever your doing slowly.

Tell you what, if I experience a tank melt down, I will stop telling people to do it. But until then, my personal trials have been fairly successful.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

I think people who experienced meltdowns were really playing with this. High dosing, using the dosing to replace other things. I'm not telling anyone to stop what they're doing and just vodka dose a bottle a month. Thats crazy. My vodka dosing is minimal and on top of everything else I do to keep my N & P in check. I run a refugium with many plants, I do weekly 15% water changes like clockwork. I run a eheim canister with my carbon and floss in it that I change out once a week. I run a venturi protein skimmer. Its a combination of things that keep my tank algae free. I admit that maybe I was exaggerating with the diatom, but I have virtually none. Any diatom is eaten by my crabs & cleanup crew.

The Vodka is done on top of this at a minimum dosage and it keeps my readings at near 0. I also feed my corals and my fish adequately.

 

[waltercat]

I think the vodka dosing conversation is really interesting. However I think it is straying a bit from the initial purpose of this thread, to discuss the effect of a canister filters on a reeftank. Reefermadness99 thinks vodka is a better solution, and he had had success with that method. However can we challenge the merits of his efforts in another thread please. If you wanna think I'm crazy for keeping a canister have at me. Please try not to split this thread, which is going to chronicle the benefits/detriments of a canister not vodka dosing.

I'm not faulting anyone btw, just trying to hone in on the conversation as it has diverged into 2 threads.

 

[waltercat]

For the record I am not running biological filtration (although anything with surface area is in effect biological filtration) I am running floss and carbon.

I am going to test my water every 2 days for ammonia and nitrate. If I see any fluctuations I will clean my canister. If 2 weeks goes by I will remove the canister and clean out everything. Replace the floss with new floss and fresh saltwater. I'll leave the carbon in.

If I repeatedly see fluctuations in my tests after cleaning the canister, then I'll probably add the skimmer back and try out both. If I continue to see these sorts of fluctuations with both I'll junk the canister and sell it to someone who has a freshwater tanks.

If I don't see any fluctuations in my params and can change out the media every 1-2 weeks then I'll stick with the canister.

 

[georgelc86]

Dibs on the filter :splitspin. Good luck with the test WC, its going to be interesting.

 

[UnknownWaters]

I agree with Walter about the thread going in 2 directions. stop the pissing match about vodka dosing and lets watch and learn from walters trials and hopefully not errors. I think if you guys drank more vodka instead of giving it to the fish you 2 would be much happier. and as far as your filtration is concerned hell if you dont want a sump for your skimmer and you dont want a loud HOB skimmer and want better mechanical filtration then maybe got get yourself a supreme Skilter 2 in 1 unit maybe its the best of both worlds for walters tank. IMO

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Sorry bout the pissing contest. Good luck with the canister, I think at very least you should try to use some GFO's to keep your P's down. Maybe in your canister? Don't know if you have sand but i would also try to go bare bottom so you can pull out any detritus build up during your weekly water changes. Also keep feeding to an absolute minimum. You will have a system that will require serious monitoring of nutrients. A strict maintenance schedule should make it all work out. Let us know how it goes!

 

[waltercat]

Ok, I have an idea to make this kinda fun. I think I'm going to be successful with the canister and don't think my params are going to plummet like everyone thinks. There are many that disagree. Let's make a little wager to make this whole test more fun.

For all of you who think that I'll fail and scrap the filter in the end, please respond saying you want to get in on the bet. Here's what I will bet. For all the people who think I will fail, if I do, I will randomly choose one of you and paint your a 8"x10" painting of any fish or coral you want. If I succeed then each of you have to give me a frag at the next MR frag swap (doesn't need to be a crazy frag, but no GPS or Kenya trees either).

As for what is considered success vs failure, we need to come up with terms. Failure is if I scrap the filter altogether. Let's say that I will be able to keep the canister with equal or better conditions than I had when I had the filter for 3 months from when I started this thread. If I remove it within that time period you win and one of you gets a shiny new painting. If I don't remove it and am happy with it than I get a frag at the next swap from each of you.

If you want to get in on the wager simply reply with the fish or coral you would want me to paint you. Here's a pic of my latest painting that I finished last night:

Scolymia Coral - http://johnstires.com/wp-content/gallery/aquatic-paintings/lps-scolymia.jpg

 

[NYreefNoob]

walter, personally i think it will work if you stay on top of it, is it worth all the extra time and effort, well that's up to you, honestly you could just put the filter cover on a maxijet pump and recieve same conclusion to what you are trying now, except that you can run carbon and phos in the reactor

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

I am eager to see how many actually have the guts to bet. LOL

So sad you only offer one sided bet. If the wager is the other way around I would bet 3 times. After 3 months, I tell you why I would bet 3 times. I really want your paintings.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

LoL, cracks me up. I don't think it will be a failure in the sense that your tank will crash and everything will die. I think your nutrients will be higher and your corals will be unhappy and you'll probably see algae growing, etc... But all in all, your tank will still live on. Its just a matter of how OCD and anal you are about your tank's livelihood.

And no, I'm not betting on this. I'll bet on the Stanley Cup with anyone. Pittsburgh vs. Detroit. Pens in 6.

 

[waltercat]

I'm not betting a tank crash, I'm betting that I'll can the canister because I am not happy with the performance. I'm sad there are no takers so far.