Adding water volume vs refugium

[Silverni2]

I have a 120 mixed reef and I'm debating which to add a 45 -90 gal Rubbermaid container for more water volume or a 30 gallon refugium with deep sand bed, liverock and chaeto?
Any idea which would be more beneficial to my tank?
Thx

 

[MikeC]

What problems are you having that you want to add one of these?

 

[Silverni2]

What problems are you having that you want to add one of these?

I've always had water quality problems even after doing consistent water changes ( every - every other week) 30-35 gallon water changes, specifically high nitrates I have a phosphate reactor. My tank is overloaded with livestock.

 

[MikeC]

Do you have a DSB if so do you siphon it to remove detritus ?
How long has the tank been set up?

 

[Silverni2]

Tank has been up 4 years
Tank has a very shallow crushed coral sand bed 1/2"- 1" that gets vacuumed every other week

 

[masterswimmer]

I'd get rid of the crushed coral completely. Unfortunately there are a lot of very beneficial sand sifting critters you cannot keep due to the CC. Slowly over the course of a few weeks siphon or scoop out the CC. After it's removed, slowly add a nice fine (not oolitic) sand. After that, leave it alone. No more siphoning the sandbed.

IMO, because of the CC being a detritus trap, you're forced to siphon out the nasties. In turn you're also siphoning out the beneficial bacteria and micro life forms that help to process your tanks waste.

Just my $.10 minus $.08

Russ

 

[MikeC]

Well adding additional water volume will only dilute your problem and postpone your current situation and IMOP adding a refugium with deep sand bed, liverock and chato will only add to your problem allowing more detritus to be traped and cause more phosphates to be released.

If you can grow chato you have two manny nutriants in the water colum, That is what feeds the algae and unless you harvest the chato regularly it will not be removed. Why not try and prevent it from even being available. That is unless you like to look at chato :scratchch

How over loaded are you with your live stock? If your over feeding and your tank can't Handel the bio load, well then you need to adjust that. (I.e. less fish)
The bottom line is you need to export what you import.

Have you considered adding a setteling tank to trap detritus and then you can siphon it out weekly or as needed before it brakes down and turns into phosphates to feed algae.

One more question what skimmer? Are you skimming wet ? How often do you empty it? Ok that was three more questions lol

 

[MikeC]

Russ I agree with you as far as removing the sandbead in turn leaving less places for detritus to be trapped

But can you explain to me how

In turn you're also siphoning out the beneficial bacteria and micro life forms that help to process your tanks waste.

Just my $.10 minus $.08

Russ

How does micro life forms process tank wast? I mean do they eat it and it magically disappears out of the tank? If something in the tank eats something it is still in the tank.

IMOP We need to get away from this thinking and must realize we need to export what we import.

 

[masterswimmer]

Russ I agree with you as far as removing the sandbead in turn leaving less places for detritus to be trapped

But can you explain to me how


How does micro life forms process tank wast? I mean do they eat it and it magically disappears out of the tank? If something in the tank eats something it is still in the tank.

IMOP We need to get away from this thinking and must realize we need to export what we import.

Its been documented (and empirically observed) that food introduced to our tanks gets eaten approximately 5-7 times by various critters in our tanks. Each time it is eaten it is broken down to more basic levels. The smaller the critter finally eating it the more it is processed. When we siphon out sandbeds (whether they be CC or aragonite sand) we also siphon out amphipods, copepods, worms, etc. and in turn remove a 'level' (or multiple levels) of processing for the waste in the tank.

Russ

 

[pmark85]

It converts the waste from a harmful form into a not as harmful form that can easily be managed via water changes.

 

[ecchybridLE]

one thing i have heard is also is that your sand/crushed coral being that it may be 4 years old may have nitrates/phosphate trapped in it and now leaching out constantly. i would start replacing the sand bed one small section at a time. pull a little out, add some new in till it's all changed out. adding water volume really never hurts , but you should try and solve the issue first , then add the extra water volume for stability over all. refugiums need to be set up with good flow as to not let any detritus settle.and i personally would never put a deep sand bed in one.

 

[Silverni2]

Thanks for the info
I think I will be removing the cc as you said Russ my only fear is a landslide of live rock.
Mike I think the benefit to adding more water volume to my tank is that
The extra 50ish gallons will now make my tank 170 gallon tank with the same fish and coral load as I had before?
I have a bubble magus nac7 that pulls approximately a 16oz of gunk every 3-4 days ( more of a dry skim than wet).
Thx
Guys

 

[MikeC]

Well it sounds like you have it all figured out

Good luck!

 

[MikeC]

Thought I would share this

 

[Silverni2]

Thought I would share this

Thanks
Mike
I do understand where your coming from, I appreciate the eduction.
Just curious what kind of skimmer are you using? I believe you have a 120g? What is ur stock list?
Thanks
Again

 

[MikeC]

I have a Reefoctopus SRO-3000EXT
And 14 fish.
4 clowns
3 Bartlett Anthias
3 lire tail Anthias
1 kole tang
1 Blue chromis
1 yellow wrass
1 Orchid Dottyback

 

[masterswimmer]

Thought I would share this

Mike, your cute graphic depicts exactly what I've been saying to the 'T'.
If you're siphoning/vacuuming the CC and thereby removing a large percentage of the organisms after mr. Red Crab, then those 'input units' aren't going to be processed by those removed organisms. Therefore, instead of 0.0625 units being left behind daily, you'll have to add back into the equation (0.5 units + 0.25 units + 0.125 units added to the original 0.0625 units = 0.9375 units) on a daily basis. Consequently the accumulation and resulting buildup of unprocessed food units grows much faster than if those critters had not been siphoned out of the CC.

Thank you for taking the time to find that chart. It shows the breakdown in a very clear and easy to understand format.

I hope that clarified the point I was making about siphoning out the good critters.

Russ

 

[MikeC]

Nice way to try and twist it around your funny lol
Guess you did not read the last 2 sentences.

 

[MikeC]

I have another cute one for you lol
Sorry it's a little long

Little boy: Sir, I want to buy that cat in the window.
Pet shop owner: Ok son, but how are you going to deal with the cat's poop?
Little boy: I thought I could just train the cat to go in a litter box....
Pet shop owner: Oh no, that's much to much work. To do it right you'll also have to buy this "cat poop filter". It takes care of it's self, only takes up one room in your house, and provides you with hours of additional fascination. It consists of a foot of dirt straight from a cow pasture, all the bugs included. (You'll have to restock the bugs from time to time) Also includes a cow and a horse too.
Little boy: Do I really need a cow and a horse just to have a cat?
Pet shop owner: Of course you do, otherwise the bugs will die. They need to have the cow and horse poop to eat.
Little boy: But I thought the bugs would eat the cat poop.
Pet shop owner: They will, but that's not enough for them to eat.
Little boy: Why don't I just have less bugs?
Pet shop owner: Because then there won't be enough to eat all the cat poop.
Little boy: What?
Pet shop owner: You're too little to understand.
Little boy: (not wanting to seem stupid) Well, I just though a litter box would do the trick.
Pet shop owner: That's what all little boys think. I know better.
Little boy: Maybe I could just throw some dirt of my own in the room and my uncle has a goat....
Pet shop owner: That might work, but don't come to me and complain if you don't follow my instructions to the letter. You have to have just the right kind of bugs.
Little boy: What kind of bugs?
Pet shop owner: Oh all kinds.
Little boy: How many exactly?
Pet shop owner: As many as you can get.
Little boy: How will I know if I have enough.
Pet shop owner: Oh, I could tell you but you'll never be able to figure it out.
Little boy: Then how will I know if it's enough?
Pet shop owner: Just keep putting more in as often as possible.
Little boy: Ok. How do I know when I need more.
Pet shop owner: As soon as you can afford it, get more.
Little boy: Just a cow, a horse, a foot of dirt, and a bunch of bugs. That sounds easy.
Pet shop owner: It is.
Little boy: Do you use this kind of filter for your store so I can see how it works?
Pet shop owner: No.
Little boy: How come?
Pet shop owner: I had a really cool setup, but the cow died of Anthrax, fell over and landed on some of the cats so I had to tear it down. It was something to see though. Just pick up some special anti-anthrax cow food, and you won't have that problem.
Little boy: Gee mister, I wish I had seen it. Ok, I guess I'll take the farm in a box.
Pet shop owner: I knew you were a bright boy.
Little boy: (smiles wide knowing he's smarter than all his friends)

 

[MikeC]

Russ I think we can agree to disagree lol
Yes your method probably works to some extent in the fact that eventually excess food can be broken down and maybe ones protein skimmer will remove it after the fact?maybe? But I bet not before algae gets a hold of the organic phosphates in the water coloum.

On the other hand why not attack the problem before it starts and remove the excess food before it can be broken down and thus releasing Phosphates(food for algae) into the water column.

I have no interest in feeding crabs,worms,pods,algae or chato only the higher up's thus removing it by siphoning it out before it gets a chance to brake down.

Back to the OP
What are you feeding ? and how much? How many fish?
If your feeding frozen do you rinse it with RO water before you feed
This will help to remove phosphates before they enter the tank as opposed to leaving them in to feed the worms and stuff.

Ps there are no more beneficial bacteria and micro life forms in your sandbed that are not already in your live rock. Where do you think they came from.