Friendly lighting schedule discussion. MH/LED

[MikeC]

I?m not looking to debate what is better just stating my situation pertaining to my tanks set up.

With that said here is a little background.

I have had my LED AiSol Blues over my 120 DT for about a year and a half.
I have 4 of them at 8 inches above the water surface and they basically ramp up and down and are on for 10 hours a day with a peek time of about 6 1/2 hours. (Not at 100%)

I have gotten what I would consider ok/descent growth and color is ok but definitely on the paler side and not what I would call optimal.

I also recently set up a 30 rimless about 2 months ago with a 250w MH Radium bulb/Lumen Bright III/LuXcore Selectable Ballast.
I have this at 20inches above the water surface and as of now the MH are only on for 5 Hours a day.
I also have a Kessil 150w Deep Ocean Blue that comes on for an hour before and after the MH goes off just for dawn & dusk.

I have to say the color and growth with the MH has been wonderful.
I have never had such rich deep colors.

Discussion:
Thoughts on ramp up time for LED?s?
Is it worth it? Does any one just have their LED?s come on at full power like MH?s do?
Should ramp up time NOT count as photosynthetic time?

As of now I am unable to put MH?s over my DT (low ceiling) so I am trying to make my LED?s work more in line with my MH and was wondering your thoughts and experiences.
I know people (Garys reef and others) have had great successes with their led,s but after
having both types of lighting set ups at the same time I cant help but want more out of my led,s compared to my MH.

p.s. If you haven?t had both lighting setups??well lets just say experience means just that!

 

[jedimaster1138]

I have gotten what I would consider ok/descent growth and color is ok but definitely on the paler side and not what I would call optimal.

This sounds familiar - exactly what I experienced with LED's and Acropora. The best I could get to was...just decent...never good. Most of the Acropora just crumbled after losing PE and color. It was irritating to say the least. I was using both Ecoxotic LED's in a shallow-er tank (so low end stuff) and then Maxspect Razors (supposedly good stuff) Birdsnests, seriatopa, and stylophora, some montipora and polyps were fine...acropora...no. Every time I would add a new acro it would look its best in the bag for the first day in my tank. Starting with day 2 it was nothing but downhill in terms of color, growth and PE.

After verifying that chemistry was fine, and experiencing what sounds like the same frustration as you, I came to the only conclusion that it had to be lighting. After a few months on the Internet reading thread after thread complaining about the same thing, I started shopping.

I wound up with an 8x80w ATI T5. Couldn't be happier. Even Acropora that previously and clearly had "LED slow death disease" and that I expected to die actually came back to life, though some were too far gone. The acro I've added post-switch have been humming along. I'm also able to keep clams alive now, which I couldn't do with either of my LED solutions.

I also recently set up a 30 rimless about 2 months ago with a 250w MH Radium bulb/Lumen Bright III/LuXcore Selectable Ballast.
I have this at 20inches above the water surface and as of now the MH are only on for 5 Hours a day.
I also have a Kessil 150w Deep Ocean Blue that comes on for an hour before and after the MH goes off just for dawn & dusk.

I have to say the color and growth with the MH has been wonderful.
I have never had such rich deep colors.

Everything I've read and heard from experienced reefers and personal friends who have that exact same set up is that the absolute gold standard in SPS growth and color is properly driven Radiums in big, high quality reflectors like you have there.

That being said, I'm - completely happy with my T5's - so far, it's only been 3 months, but the change is obvious. Looking at all the threads and TOTMs that are full blown SPS - read: acropora - tanks, driven by either MH or T5 (or both)...it was an easy choice for me. In my apartment, with my power and heat issues, MH wouldn't work for me. When I get into a house and can set up my giant basement tank (and figure out how to hide it from the wife), I would not hesitate one second to go to multiple 250w/400w Radiums.

Discussion:
Thoughts on ramp up time for LED?s?
Is it worth it? Does any one just have their LED?s come on at full power like MH?s do?
Should ramp up time NOT count as photosynthetic time?

My understanding is that in the equatorial regions of this planet, ie where the wild reefs are, sunrise is very fast. So extremely long ramp up times aren't necessary. This jives with all those MH and T5 tanks out there having massive acropora success which just strike the bulbs full power.

Anyway, I know you didn't mention T5's in your post, but as you sound like you are in a similar boat as me...ie the SS Underwhelmed, and unable to go full MH in your big reef. So I thought I'd mention my T5 success. (so far)

PS - I will not, ever, bash LED's. I'm not interested in fighting about it with anyone. I will only say that both T5 and MH work and are 100% proven. LED's...maybe. I just got tired of beta testing LED fixtures and spending big $ on corals that looked better in the bag than in my tank. So I went to what I know works 100% of the time.

 

[MikeC]

Thank you Jedi you comments are much appreciated.

 

[piranhapat]

I see a lot of people hung up with which lights would work better than the other. I don't want to discuss which are better. Because MH, LED, T5, have success with SPS. In few months I will see how kessil work. But I'm true believer in chemistry of water and consistity. If water par are off slight for a day or two can cause SPS to fade or no color.
Mike, I think you should cut back your total hours to 6 hours on LED lights. 10 1/2 is way to much. I think your 30 gal you said you have the MH on for 5 hours. Why are you giving more hours on LED. You feel they not strong enough. Give them same about as MH or one hour more. Than see if they a difference. Remember you just set that tank up and water Chemistry is right on. So that can be given you great results your seeing.

 

[MikeC]

I see a lot of people hung up with which lights would work better than the other.

Well not really hung up? the proof for me and my tank setups is in my Reef room in the basement? thus taking into account my water chemistry for both tanks.

I don't want to discuss which are better. Because MH, LED, T5, have success with SPS.

Agreed but IMOP I will also say I believe personal taste in coral color and what one perceives to see as a healthy tank is subjective.

If water par are off slight for a day or two can cause SPS to fade or no color.

These faded gradualy over a year and a half, agreed changes have happened in my take as Im sure changes has happened in manny others but to have corals fade in two days I would have to believe something drastic would have had to happen, again IMOP but not the case in my situation.

Mike, I think you should cut back your total hours to 6 hours on LED lights. 10 1/2 is way to much. I think your 30 gal you said you have the MH on for 5 hours. Why are you giving more hours on LED.

10 hours a day with a peek time of about 6 1/2 hours

So I have a peek time of 6 1/2 already do you think I should try and cut the ramp up and down time out all together?

Give them same about as MH or one hour more. Than see if they a difference.

Slowly attempting this at this time which is why I started the post just to get others input so thank you for yours

 

[jackson6745]

In my short time of using an LED (radion G2), I came to one conclusion. You need a higher level of phosphate to keep rich color under led. When I say "higher" phosphate I don't mean .3 reading and full blow algae outbreaks. I mean a reef that doesn't have a great nutrient export system. Perhaps a reef that is poorly skimmed or rely on only macro algae for export, a reef not using gfo, not carbon/bacteria dosing, not doing the right amount of water changes, or even an aged reef with lots of organic waste along with a high bio-load. WHATEVER IT MAYBE... The point is that a reef that routinely has po4 reedings from .08-.15 can tolerate the extremely focused intensity of LED. The SPS will have higher populations of zooxanthellae and get vivid coloration from very intense lighting.
However, i have seen low nutrient tanks with good colors under weaker generic "chinese led"

This is the very reason why I had a 400w radium over my display with good color corals, and I cooked the same corals in my frag tank with a radion LED running half power (same water plumbed together). My po4 levels are are usually .02-.03. When you look at a maintenance freak like Mike C It all make sense. His tank is super clean and his colors are on the light side. IMO Mike your tank would grow and color 3x better under T5 because of your low nutrient level.

For those of you that get all personal about your LED's keep in mind that I am not bashing them in the least bit. I am simply stating facts and my observations. I would certainly use LED's over my tank again if I had a nutrient level that would allow me to have the best colors. The balance between lighting intensity and po4 availability is what it's all about IMO.

 

[MikeC]

Thanks Rich and I am taking this into consideration originally thanks to Duke who brought it to light for me to think about and over the last few weeks I have been feeding my tank more as a little experiment.

Are you saying that is why I can take a frag from my Led tank and put it in my MH tank and within a week to a few days there is noticeably a big difference in color.
Both tanks get fed equally both BB,both great skimmers,both settling tanks and husbandry?

only difference in you experiance is MH does better with a cleaner tank:scratch:

 

[jackson6745]

IMO Mike the reason why your LED frags color up better when you put them under halide is because the halide is a more uniform light. When your SPS are limited in zooxanthellae, and there is not enough po4 for them to build the population, the LED light can be damaging. At least that's my explanation A linear source of light is even more uniform and less damaging to SPS with low levels of zooxanthellae. This is why I recommended t5 for your tank. My pastel acros grew like weeds under t5's in a previous tank

 

[MikeC]

Thanks for your thoughts Rich

 

[thirty6]

Mike are you noticing any temp swings with the MH setup vs the led setup or the shorter time period for MH is helping that

 

[vio]

The problem w/LEDs is NO PAR steps like MH, i use to run 14.000 K MH from Hamilton Technology, Super,Super, now i pay the electr. bill so i go LEDs.

 

[MikeC]

Mike are you noticing any temp swings with the MH setup vs the led setup or the shorter time period for MH is helping that

Ya NO temp swings the heater and Apex handle that really well.

 

[MikeC]

The problem w/LEDs is NO PAR steps like MH, i use to run 14.000 K MH from Hamilton Technology, Super,Super, now i pay the electr. bill so i go LEDs.

Par steps? Please explain?

Do you have a sps tank and are your colors just the same as they were with MH as they are now with your LEDs ?

What LEDs ?

As far as the electric bill goes, I run my MH half the time that my LEDs run and my heater runs less therefore to me the cost argument/justification is irrelevant. :division:

Thanks Vio
Sorry for all the questions I'm just trying to stay on track

 

[vio]

I got PAR meter, than i help few guys, when i check MH i find, top water 600-700 PAR, then the deep u go, drop ,500 PAR, in middle let's say 300 PAR than at the bottom, around 150-200 PAR, i test many LED Light fix. than i see 300-350 PAR at top, 150-200 PAR bottom, what i see at LEDs, NOT many steps like MH, about my tanks, i crash mine after 7-8 years, last year, i start again, 90% from frags, right now i change everythink, Aquascape,lights (NEVER sand for me).

 

[prattreef]

That is an interesting theory Rich. Certainly my tank fits your description though I'm not sure all nice LED lit Acro tanks do. If you are correct, that is awesome news for LED owners--slack on your husbandry a little bit and improve your success!

 

[jackson6745]

Randy I don't really look for exceptions I just look at everything I see. I still have yet to see an impressive brightly lit LED tank without a good bio-load and good source of po4.
You can run radions 100% when others burn their tanks at half strength. Why do you think that is? I'm open to any explanation because manufactures certainly don't provide one. I too would love to run low heat and low wattage LED but last time that didn't work out for me and quality LED are not cheap to try. I'm just trying to rationalize their effects.

 

[Geraud]

Randy, when did you make the change from MH to Radions? Did you just pop the new lights in, or did it gradually?

 

[prattreef]

I don't have a a good answer for you. I was serious that you have an interesting theory. I'm curious what some of the other well developed LED lit SPS reefs do husbandry-wise. Kres care to chime in? Sunny? Sanjay is switching over to Radions, so that will be interesting to see how corals respond in his tank under his care.

 

[prattreef]

Randy, when did you make the change from MH to Radions? Did you just pop the new lights in, or did it gradually?

I made the switch to Radion Gen 1's roughly 1 1/2 years ago? I acclimated to them from 250W halides over the course of 3 weeks from about 40% intensity to full intensity. Then when I upgraded to the Pro's ( 5 months ago ????) I did a quick 1 week acclimation from roughly 60% intensity to full. As Rich notes, I did not burn a single coral which others commonly do.

 

[Moneymaks24]

So first ppl say phosphates inhibit calcification and therefore are bad, now apparently we need phosphates to have better growth and colors? Confusing theories