Do you think mangroves have the potential to considerably ra

[chris_h]

I was trying to think of ways to naturally raise calcium in my tank. I remembered from a vacation in florida that mangroves produce acid and dissolve all of the sand around them. I was thinking of switching the caulerpa in my 70 gallon sump for mangroves. The nutrient removing ability is not really a concern, and it would be neat if I could maintain my calcium this way.

 

[liquid]

I seriously doubt it. Our tanks use up a LOT of calcium depending on what we're keeping.

Shane (aka 'liquid')

 

[aquaguy]

Hi.

I have a mangrove in my system and I've been reading some about mangroves but I've never heard anything about that. It could be very interesting. Who tell you that in florida? trustworthy source?

 

[Anonymous]

Second Shane's comments. The dissolution of carbonate sediments in this fashion would require both an initially very deep (or highly coarse) sandbed for any acids produced to pool. Also, some diffusive method would be necessary to supply the ions dossolved in any appreciable rate/concentration.

 

[chris_h]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by galleon:
<strong>Second Shane's comments. The dissolution of carbonate sediments in this fashion would require both an initially very deep (or highly coarse) sandbed for any acids produced to pool. Also, some diffusive method would be necessary to supply the ions dossolved in any appreciable rate/concentration.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I could increase the depth of the sand to 12 inches.

How would coarse sand help?

I dont know about the diffusion. Mabey some pistol shrimps with gobies.

 

[monkeyboy]

Isn't your tank SPS dominated? With a high calcium demand like that, or even a moderate demand i don't think they'd keep up. Either way, you'll need a ton of mangroves (think i red 1 per gallons or 2 gallons of tank volume), it may help a little but i don't think it's practical. How about a DIY CA reactor?

 

[chris_h]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by monkeyboy:
<strong>Isn't your tank SPS dominated? With a high calcium demand like that, or even a moderate demand i don't think they'd keep up. Either way, you'll need a ton of mangroves (think i red 1 per gallons or 2 gallons of tank volume), it may help a little but i don't think it's practical. How about a DIY CA reactor?</strong><hr></blockquote>

What do you mean by number of mangroves? I think single mangroves can grow huge.

It probaly is not pratical, but if effective it would reduce work, and some people are already using mangroves to reduce nitrate. I hate testing for calcium which is necesary for CA reactors.

 

[Carpentersreef]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by chris_h:
<strong> I hate testing for calcium which is necesary for CA reactors.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Say what?

Why?

I stopped testing for Ca a long time ago, and I've got a reactor. I stopped because my readings were constantly 480 - 500. I do still test for Mg, though.

Mitch

 

[chris_h]

But you did test to see what the apropriate dosing levels were. Every time I have picked up a caclium test I end up giving up becouse I cant decide if it is blue or not. I am not trying to say the current methods for maintaining calcium are bad, I am just looking for a different way. And changing the caulerpa to mangroves would require very little effort. I might even do it if I decide they would not add a significant amount of calcium.

 

[Carpentersreef]

Chris,
That's why I say 480 - 500. I can't pinpoint it any better than that. I'm using Salifert. Which test kit do you use?

What do you mean by dosing levels?

Mitch

 

[chris_h]

I dont remember what kits I have used. I have tried several. I dont even try to test anymore. I got obviously wrong measurements when I tried.

By dosing levels I mean the amount of calcium you chose to add to the water. If you are adding more than the tank is using, it will eventually build up, and you dont want to underdose either. I may end up with a Ca reactor eventually, but the purpose of my post was to discuss if mangroves had a potential to increase calcium levels, not to decide what method of adding calcium is best.

 

[Carpentersreef]

Chris,
I understand what the point of your original post is, but you mentioned that (as I understood) part of the reason was that you don't like testing for Calcium, which you thought was part of using a reactor. I'm saying that it is not necessary, and as far as what dosing level I set my reactor to, I use a PH controller that is hooked up to a magnetic switch on my Co2 tank. Once a reactor is set up initially, that's it. The drip rate is set to 1 or 2 drops/second, and I don't test for Ca anymore.

Mitch

 

[chris_h]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aquaguy:
<strong>Hi.

I have a mangrove in my system and I've been reading some about mangroves but I've never heard anything about that. It could be very interesting. Who tell you that in florida? trustworthy source?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I did a quick search on the internet.

I found this and several others:

http://terra.rice.edu/department/classes/geol516/belize_trip/mangroves.html second paragraph

If you want more sites, do a search on yahoo for mangroves+tannic+acid. You will find a whole lot of them.

 

[aquaguy]

Thanx Chris_h

It's good to know about this. You know I have my mangrove planted in silica sand

I will try to change my sand bed (little by little). I hope this acid does not dissolve silica sand into silicates !!!! It could sound stupid but who knows I've never imagine that my mangrove could dissolve carbonate sediments maybe it's dissolving my silica sand, do you know something about it.... I need a chemist !

 

[JoshF]

Aquaguy: I'm not a chemist, but I am a biologist, and I've read a decent amount about marine chemistry. Any actual chemist is strongly encouraged to jump in here and correct anything I might say! Randy? Anywhow, the acid they are referring to is tannic acid. Tannic acid is not a single acid, but a family of similar organic acids which are byproducts of many biological processes. They are what make red white feel kind of "fuzzy" in your mouth or the same from a red grape. They are not particularly strong acids, and I'm impressed that they could even dissolve CaCO3 (calcium sediment.) However, it takes an extremely strong acid to etch glass (silicates.) Otherwise there would be a lot of reports of peopple with mangroves whose glass tanks had melted!

Obviously this has not occured. I concur with all of the sentiments above on the particularly slow rate at which the acid produced by the mangroves would do anything meaningful to your calcium levels. It won't hurt anything but it is highly unlikely to help significantly. Keep in mind that mangrove swamps have been there for quite some time, are not subjected to frequent siltation by carbonate sand, are responsible for an incredible amount of sedimentation of organic mud, and IMHO the CO2 produced by the upper layers of bacterial growth would be more significant than the tannins produced by the mangroves.

Josh Fox

P.S. Either calcium reactors or Nilsen style Kalk reactors are pretty much "fire and forget" sorts of devices. Do a web search for "Nilsen+Kalk." Bill Esposito has a pretty good example of a DIY piece. For an SPS tank however, even Kalk isn't probably enough. You make need to do a calcium reactor. It's a lot better for you corals than two part additives or anything like that, if only because it's relatively constant.