after a recent tank crash due to a power loss i had to start all over again i previsously had a cherub and bicolor angel in my tank for over two years now i can`t keep any angel alive for more than one week .all tank parameters are fine.i read angels can not tolerate ammonia but my level is .25 to .5ppm.not sure if alkalinity stresses them i up it to combat some red algae.any input will be helpful. thanks john p.s. tank is 90g loaded with live rock.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
aren`t pygmy angels hardy
- Thread starter john1
- Start date
John, are you sure about those ammonia numbers? In an established system the ammonia should be undetectable, so if you are reading some that could very well be doing in your angels. Do you have any other fish that are doing well?
How well established is your live rock, does it have a pod population? Even if dwarf angels are eating prepared foods, they need to be able to browse all day on the rocks.
IME dwarf angels can be hardy if their requirements are met, but they have little or no tolerance for less than nearly perfect water conditions or for an incomplete diet.
HTH
How well established is your live rock, does it have a pod population? Even if dwarf angels are eating prepared foods, they need to be able to browse all day on the rocks.
IME dwarf angels can be hardy if their requirements are met, but they have little or no tolerance for less than nearly perfect water conditions or for an incomplete diet.
HTH
minime, thanks for the reply all the life that was in my tank prior to the 30 hr power outage died .i had mini brittle stars, limpets copods and all kinds of little creatures i say live rock assuming some or all of the bacteria survived.there are other fish thriviving in the tank. hard to say the amount of small creatures there are now.
Your ammonia is .25-.5ppm???
There's the first problem. Your tank is in some sort of crisis. How long ago did the power outage happen? It sounds like your tank has started to re-cycle. Look for any dead critters in the tank, watch the numbers ( I wouldn't be surprised if you nitrite starts rising soon), and wait until the ammonia/nitrite have dropped to undetectable before adding ANY fish at all.
Pygmy's are a hardier species, however, as minime posted, they have no tolerance for ammonia, or nitrite. Read this as your tank has started anew (sorry to be the bearer of bad news). Hopefully, however, since your tank was previously established, your cycle may be quicker than a new tank.
There's the first problem. Your tank is in some sort of crisis. How long ago did the power outage happen? It sounds like your tank has started to re-cycle. Look for any dead critters in the tank, watch the numbers ( I wouldn't be surprised if you nitrite starts rising soon), and wait until the ammonia/nitrite have dropped to undetectable before adding ANY fish at all.
Pygmy's are a hardier species, however, as minime posted, they have no tolerance for ammonia, or nitrite. Read this as your tank has started anew (sorry to be the bearer of bad news). Hopefully, however, since your tank was previously established, your cycle may be quicker than a new tank.
"they have no tolerance for ammonia, or nitrite."
Lets be careful here with the facts.
The gist of your post is well taken, but saltwater fish living at normal salinity can in fact tolerate very high levels of nitrite. Higher than your test kit can detect for example.
I know all of our texts for this hobby repeat the same story about nitrite toxicity, but they are in fact all wrong.
A quick review of the scientific literature will show you that chloride ions outcompete nitrite for uptake into the fish. So in freshwater with almost no chloride ions, nitrite is in fact quite lethal.
But in saltwater with chloride abundance, the nitrite simply does not get into the fish unless the concentrations are extremely high. Such high concentrations are NOT reached even during our normal nitrogen cycle.
Sorry to pick on this point but it's one of my pet peaves.
John
Lets be careful here with the facts.
The gist of your post is well taken, but saltwater fish living at normal salinity can in fact tolerate very high levels of nitrite. Higher than your test kit can detect for example.
I know all of our texts for this hobby repeat the same story about nitrite toxicity, but they are in fact all wrong.
A quick review of the scientific literature will show you that chloride ions outcompete nitrite for uptake into the fish. So in freshwater with almost no chloride ions, nitrite is in fact quite lethal.
But in saltwater with chloride abundance, the nitrite simply does not get into the fish unless the concentrations are extremely high. Such high concentrations are NOT reached even during our normal nitrogen cycle.
Sorry to pick on this point but it's one of my pet peaves.
John
JohnF, I can understand your point, however, my question is: why take any risk with a pygmy (or any fish for that matter) in a tank with readings indicating a problem? Especially considering letting a cycle finish, waiting until the nitrite/ammonia readings are nil would be beneficial to them.
Also consider this: By removing fish from their home environment, and placing them into a tank, we are placing them in a stressful situation. That would be one negative against the fish. Then, place them in a closed area that has readings that are not ideal: 2 negatives. Now, feed them only certain times a day, and more limited selection than what they are used to: 3negatives.
I'll also quote you here:
Also consider this: By removing fish from their home environment, and placing them into a tank, we are placing them in a stressful situation. That would be one negative against the fish. Then, place them in a closed area that has readings that are not ideal: 2 negatives. Now, feed them only certain times a day, and more limited selection than what they are used to: 3negatives.
I'll also quote you here:
Many of these texts have been written by marine biologists who have studying this for years. I ask you to present the data that proves them wrong if you can be this bold. Let's see the facts, not anectdotal evidence.I know all of our texts for this hobby repeat the same story about nitrite toxicity, but they are in fact all wrong
Please don't be so touchy.
"I can understand your point, however, my question is: why take any risk with a pygmy (or any fish for that matter) in a tank with readings indicating a problem"
I did not advocate taking the chance. Your overall point was well made the first time. I only wanted to clarify some information you gave about nitrite toxicity.
"Many of these texts have been written by marine biologists who have studying this for years. I ask you to present the data that proves them wrong if you can be this bold. Let's see the facts, not anectdotal evidence"
Be careful what you ask for.
I never gave any anectdotal evidence BTW.
This is an excert from the book Fish Disease by Dr E. Noga:
While marine fish are susceptible to nitrite poisoning, extremely high levels are required.
He then goes on to quote some studies done on sea trout, and sea bass.
Then finishes with this: Studes in other fish have failed to demonstrate acute toxicity at as high as 1750mg/l (Brownell, 1981) Such high nitrite levels would never be encountered in aquaculture systems.
The susceptibility of tropical aquarium fish to nitrite is unknown; however, it is best to keep levels low (<0.10mg/l) to avoid any possible toxicity.
I can't disagree with Nogas recommendations, but no study ever done has shown saltwater fish to be harmed acutely by the levels of nitrite we would see in out tanks.
As for the original poster I second all of the advice you have given him.
John
"I can understand your point, however, my question is: why take any risk with a pygmy (or any fish for that matter) in a tank with readings indicating a problem"
I did not advocate taking the chance. Your overall point was well made the first time. I only wanted to clarify some information you gave about nitrite toxicity.
"Many of these texts have been written by marine biologists who have studying this for years. I ask you to present the data that proves them wrong if you can be this bold. Let's see the facts, not anectdotal evidence"
Be careful what you ask for.
I never gave any anectdotal evidence BTW.
This is an excert from the book Fish Disease by Dr E. Noga:
While marine fish are susceptible to nitrite poisoning, extremely high levels are required.
He then goes on to quote some studies done on sea trout, and sea bass.
Then finishes with this: Studes in other fish have failed to demonstrate acute toxicity at as high as 1750mg/l (Brownell, 1981) Such high nitrite levels would never be encountered in aquaculture systems.
The susceptibility of tropical aquarium fish to nitrite is unknown; however, it is best to keep levels low (<0.10mg/l) to avoid any possible toxicity.
I can't disagree with Nogas recommendations, but no study ever done has shown saltwater fish to be harmed acutely by the levels of nitrite we would see in out tanks.
As for the original poster I second all of the advice you have given him.
John
Thanks Johnf, that's what I was looking for, wasn't meaning to be touchy. I do wonder, as the study was done on sea trout, and sea bass, if they're more tolerant of those conditions? Would be interested if there's anything more out there on the aquarium species that indicates their tolerance (or lack therof) of various chemicals.
Not too much out there on aquarium reef fish. This is the way it is for most disease/toxicity studies. The big money is in aquaculture of food fish, so all of the studies concentrate on this area.
I wouldn't think a sea bass or sea trout would uptake nitrite any differently than a yellow tang for example. The nitrite must compete with chloride ions for uptake via the gills. In fact, chloride is the treatment of choice for nitrite toxicity in freshwater fish. Again, chloride ions are one of the most abundant ions in saltwater so this is the reason saltwater fish can withstand high nitrite levels. They may be more sensitive to nitrite toxicity once the nitrite enters their bloodstream for all I know. The bottom line is the nitrite never gets there.
John
I wouldn't think a sea bass or sea trout would uptake nitrite any differently than a yellow tang for example. The nitrite must compete with chloride ions for uptake via the gills. In fact, chloride is the treatment of choice for nitrite toxicity in freshwater fish. Again, chloride ions are one of the most abundant ions in saltwater so this is the reason saltwater fish can withstand high nitrite levels. They may be more sensitive to nitrite toxicity once the nitrite enters their bloodstream for all I know. The bottom line is the nitrite never gets there.
John
taz the power outage was aug 3 i was able to save one fish and a slipper coral.all the corraline algae survived and is looking great checked all water parameters on a daily basis as of last night 0 to .25 ppm ammonia,0 nitrite,0 nitrate,ph 8.1 alkalinity 9.6 calcium 400ppm. since the power outage i have not seen the ammonia level go over .05ppm maybe imisled with writing .5ppm there are mushrooms,yellow polyps and button polyps in the tank that are doing great i would think if there was something major going on they all would be retracted.only other thing i can think of is that i dose kalk to maintain calcium levels. thanks john
Hmm, don't get that ammonia reading, that's strange then (its been over a month). May be a faulty test kit, if you can, I'd try testing again with another one. I would expect your button polyps to react negatively as well.
Other possibility is some sort of heavy metal in the water, however, I believe the polyps wouldn't stand for it any better than your fish did. This may just require some time for the tank to settle down.
Johnf, thanks for the link, a definite eye-opener.
Other possibility is some sort of heavy metal in the water, however, I believe the polyps wouldn't stand for it any better than your fish did. This may just require some time for the tank to settle down.
Johnf, thanks for the link, a definite eye-opener.
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
