Best flow for 300G? Tunze Steams, Seaswirls, or Other?

[Anonymous]

What would you guys recommend for the best set-up for flow in a 300G SPS/Clam tank.

Option one: (2) Tunze Streams 61000 with controller. These puppies kick out 3170 GPH. With this setup, I would use two (two for redundency) Iwaki or Ampmaster pumps. I wouldn't really need huge return pumps since the Tunze's are already giving me 20 times turnover. I could add the Tunze just before stocking the tank, thus keeping my initial cost down.

Option two: Two larger Iwakis each tee'd off to return two seperate 1" seaswirls. There would be four today seaswirls. This would still provide the redundency of having two return pumps.

Option three: Some sort of closed loop.

Option four: Other. Write in a better suggestion for me please.

I think option one is the best. It is the most expensive too. This tank will be 8'long, but it will be built in with only 6 - 1/2 feet showing on the family room side. So the looks of the Tunze won't look bad.

Thanks for you suggestion.

Louey

 

[hillbilly]

Some people don't like the look of streams in the tank. I don't mind, besides, it's simple, and the performace is very hard to beat.

 

[dizzy]

Louey,
If you use the Sea Swirls with eductors added to the return nozzels and powered by an Iwaki pump you will be amazed by the random flow all over the tank. Aquatic Eco System has some that screw into the 3/4" Sea Swirls. If you have one at each end of the 8' tank at different depths under the water the flow should be outstanding. Use a nipple to increae the length at the return elbow, I think Sea Swirl has them this way. The eductors increase the flow by 5x, at about the same energy consumption. Once people try eductors they will become lifetime users. Simply amazing performance enhancement without increased energy consumption. It don't get no better than that.
Mitch

 

[npaden]

You didn't have an option for it but I vote for all of the above.

You need to be careful with eductors IMO. They have a very high velocity. Also, Eductors don't increase flow by 5X unless you are pushing them with a pump that can get them to 23' of head pressure and still have a high flow rate. I think an Iwaki 100RLT could run 2 eductors at full strength. If you are pushing them with less than that it is a guessing game at how much extra flow you are picking up.

I personally feel that you can't beat the prop pumps for water flow. If you don't mind the look. A few sea swirls mixed in on the returns or a closed loop and you'll be set.

I use eductors, sea swirls and prop pumps on my 415 and think the combination works really well. You just have to be careful with the placement of the eductors because of the velocity on them.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[dizzy]

Nathan,
Richard Harker claims there is only a slight increase in velociy. The big gains are in volume. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... review.htm
I have been using a Sea Swirl on the return of an Iwaki 70RLT. Part of the flow is tapped off to feed a skimmer, so I don't know exactly how many gph are going to the Sea Swirl, but the addition of the eductor made an incredible increase in the volume.
Mitch

 

[npaden]

From Richard Harker's review of eductors
If we assume that flow across the entire cross section of the eductor is constant, flow works out to be 1.9 gps for the eductor.

His entire article is based on the assumption that the flow across the entire output of the eductor is equal and if you have ever stuck your hand in front of one you know that isn't the case. Running 2 - 1" eductors and 2 - 1" sea swirls on the output of my sequence 6000 pump the flow at the center point of the eductors is actually painful if I place my hand in front of them. Like a pressure washer. If I put my hand to the side there is still flow but not near the flow directly in the core of the output. I don't doubt the overall flow is increasing. I use eductors and think they serve a purpose. But there is no doubt in my mind that the velocity is significantly increased in the center core of the output from the eductor. That is the way that they work, the high velocity water coming through the reducer bushing in the eductor entrains water from the tank and drags it through the eductor flare nozzle with it.

It is a very complex fluid dynamic and would be impossible to just assume that the flow across the entire cross section is constant like Harker did in his article.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[dizzy]

His entire article is based on the assumption that the flow across the entire output of the eductor is equal and if you have ever stuck your hand in front of one you know that isn't the case. Running 2 - 1" eductors and 2 - 1" sea swirls on the output of my sequence 6000 pump the flow at the center point of the eductors is actually painful if I place my hand in front of them.
FWIW, Nathan

Nathan I'm not pumping near the gph through my 3/4" Sea Swirls that you are through the 1" ones. I do however put my hand in front of the output and it forceful, but not even close to painful. I'm guessing I am pumping around 800-900gph to the Sea Swirl. My tank is around 100-gallon that I sell corals out of. Water depth is 10" tank is 28" wide and about 7' long. I can notice a nice ripple effect on the surface across the entire width to about 4' from the eductor nozzle at which point is dissipates fairly abruptly. I also have a large colony of xenia sitting on the bottom at about 4' from the eductor. It sways noticeably to and fro when the Sea Swirl points in its direction. So what I'm telling you is that for about 4 feet in horizontal length I get a strong water movement (large volume) about 10" in vertical height, and it does not have potentially damaging velocity, except to lps corals perhaps. Perhaps in a deeper tank the horizontal travel would be less. It may be a matter of using valves to tweak the desired flow without increasing the damaging velocity. I am building some tanks that will have a water depth of 13" and they are 44" wide by 7' in length. I plan on using a Sea Swirl from each end. Sometimes when the returns are opposing each other they may fight each other a bit, but I don't see how this will hurt anything. Just adds randomness IMO. Oh yeah I do plan on having the opposing nozzles at somewhat different depths under the water.
Mitch

 

[npaden]

Whether it is painful or not wouldn't you agree that the flow is stronger toward the the center and weaker on the outside? Harker was assuming the flow was evenly distributed across the entire output of the eductor in making his conclusions.

I am mostly just preaching common sense. It sounds like you are placing the eductors with velocity in mind if the nearest thing to the direct output is 4' away. I'm just warning people not to set up an eductor where a coral will be directly in front of it 18" away because it will get injured by the velocity. That is the nice thing about the prop pumps, I have corals 18" from the output and they love it.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

I wish some of us can do flow rate measurement as easily as measure pH, but flow meter are not cheap.

From what I read so far, FWIW, I am more on the side of Nathan. Knowing my opinion about venturi valve, it is reasonable to assume that I will take up his opinion more readily.

IMO, educator's performance is over-rated.

 

[ChrisRD]

I think for the energy being consumed vs. the flow being produced nothing can really touch the streams.

 

[npaden]

I wish some of us can do flow rate measurement as easily as measure pH, but flow meter are not cheap.

Heh, I was just looking into this. Aquatic Eco has a cheap looking one that runs $300ish but I'm not sure how accurate it would be. I found a nice looking one with an extension handle and digital averaging and all for $695. Would need to have some specific tests that you could do and you could buy the flow meter and do the testing and write an article or two and maybe do a lecture at MACNA to get your money back out of the meter.

The wheels are spinning on some tests I could dream up for this. I think this is an area that for sure needs some more work and some actual data that could be used for comparisons. Would be nice to find a meter that could be submerged and you could take it down on the reef diving and get some measurements there as well.

Oh well, just thinking out loud.

Nathan

 

[dizzy]

Whether it is painful or not wouldn't you agree that the flow is stronger toward the the center and weaker on the outside? Harker was assuming the flow was evenly distributed across the entire output of the eductor in making his conclusions.

I am mostly just preaching common sense. It sounds like you are placing the eductors with velocity in mind if the nearest thing to the direct output is 4' away. I'm just warning people not to set up an eductor where a coral will be directly in front of it 18" away because it will get injured by the velocity. That is the nice thing about the prop pumps, I have corals 18" from the output and they love it.

FWIW, Nathan

It is a bit difficult to judge, but the force may well be stronger toward the center of the output. I do however currently have corals that are much closer than the 4' away the xenia is at. That example was to show that the flow is still strong at that distance. I also have some bubble tips anemones at about 8" in front of the nozzle that get blasted and seem to enjoy it very much. I also intended to place corals along the entire length of the new tanks and not just 4' away. The key is to place the corals with higher tolerance for strong flow closer to the nozzles. It is a temporary strong blast that many sps corals can appreciate. With a little common sense :wink: I believe I can achieve excellent results.
Mitch

 

[dizzy]

Have y'all heard about new Tunze Wavebox 6212? It is due out soon and may be a better solution than the Turbelle stream. Same low energy consumption feature, with oscillating current. Claims de-sedimentation of the entire aquarium habitat. Size L 4.9"xW 4.4"xH 11.8" Recommended USD price of $466.99. Sounds pretty cool.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Nathan, what exactly are you reffering to when you say "prop pumps, if you don't mind the looks of them"? I am assuming the Streams?

Louey

 

[npaden]

Yeah, I lump the Streams, the old Reeftecs and even the new SEIOs into the general category of "prop pumps".
I have a Tunze 6100 and a Reeftec PE-2 running in my tank.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay, that's what I thought.

It looks like the streams are winning out in the poll by a large margin.

Do you guys think that using (2) Iwaki 70's (1650 GPH) for the returns would be adequate? Or should I be thinking Iwaki 100's (2160 GPH)?

Is there any such thing as too much flow. Even if I went with the 70's the total GPH for the tank would be (1650 + 1650 + (the two 61000 streams) 3170 + 3170 = 9640 Total GPH) That would be turning the tank over 32 times per hour.

I think the tank would be clean as a whistle with this much flow and good skimming!

Louey

Louey

 

[npaden]

Iwaki's are not designed for recirculation pumps they are pressure pumps and use a lot more electricity to move the same amount of water in most applications.

Sequence makes some nice pumps that are perfect for our medium head loss applications IMO.

There isn't a thing as to much flow but there is such a thing as to much velocity. I'm running around 15,000 gph in my 415 and that isn't counting any increase in flow for the 3 eductors I'm running. I have 100% southdown sand and don't have any issues with it blowing around. It settled out with a dip in the middle and piled up on the ends but don't blow around and cloud the water column or anything now that it has settled.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

Check this out. A Sequence "easy prime 5000" for only $229. It puts out 5000G at 4'. http://www.azponds.com/new sequence.htm

That's cheap for that much flow.

Louey

 

[npaden]

Yeah, pay attention to the watts on those bad boys. I would recommend the Sequence 1000 series for your application. When you math out the price difference versus the electricity savings running a pump 24/7/365 the more efficient models are the way to go. Also if ordering from AZ ponds you need to make sure you pay extra for saltwater seals and they don't do the free shipping deals on saltwater pumps.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, thanks for the heads up! The 1000 series still reasonably priced too.

Louey