Sand beds and crushed coral substrates

[Anonymous]

Ok, so I read quite frequently (and hear about it at LFS's) about sand beds crashing, and people starting over.

I never once heard a problem with crushed coral beds. I myself have always used cc, and never had a problem, as well as the very few people I know who use the same substrate.

Anyone have any input/studies about the long term of each?

I am wondering whether the cc, because of its porous nature lasts a lot longer. Here is what I observe: I notice life down all of the way to the bottom of the cc (bristle worms, those little tiny starfish, other life) and that it seems the nature of cc allows this to happen, so natuarally, the detrius in thecc is "eaten up", however, I always notice that sand beds are dead towards the bottom.

Is this difference enough to court the idea that cc may be a better solution in a closed system?

Thoughts?

 

[Anonymous]

its anecdotal, but so far, I've had nothing but problems with DSBs, however my first reeftank had a deepish bed of CC and I not a single problem EVER

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, most reports of cc use is that it makes it harder for the animals to do their job. The large size of the grains isn't great for denitrification while making perfect collection spots for detritus. Of course, it all depends on the size of the crushed coral.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, most reports of cc use is that it makes it harder for the animals to do their job. The large size of the grains isn't great for denitrification while making perfect collection spots for detritus. Of course, it all depends on the size of the crushed coral.

I dont know...i Guess for larger marine life life sifting stars etc, cc is terrible.

But it just seems to me, and this is most important, that I SEE life all of the way to the bottom of the cc. I can take a nice pic of the creatures I have in the cc, as they are up against the glass often. Winding in and out of the cc...all sorts of things.

Is there a chance, just maybe, that years ago, people vacuumed the cc too much and took this stuff out? That was what we were "supposed" to do.

I havent vacuumed in about a year or more, and I noticed that suddenly, a whole ecosystem popped up. The creatures, I surmise, are eliminating this detrius quickly.

I would love a lot of input here.

With more and more about the debate on dsb vs bare bottom vs this and that, and the continual stories of having to switchout sand beds every few years, I am just wondering, do we need to look to a different method, perhaps.

Protein skimmers have helped and werent in wide usage when cc was more popular. Perhaps this one device, coupled with cc, made the difference now?

Like I said...I have 0 trates. 0. No sump (except a little hang on back whisper, that is devoid of anything, but does act like a mini fuge)

 

[Anonymous]

its anecdotal, but so far, I've had nothing but problems with DSBs, however my first reeftank had a deepish bed of CC and I not a single problem EVER

Hate to ask, but can you give the methods at the time?

Did you vacuum? Did you have a skimmer? How old was the cc bed?

Anything you can add.

Thanks bro!

I really want to learn more about this one aspect.

 

[Anonymous]

I would like more info on the cc too. I have a crush coral dsb and don't have any problems but it's only a year old.

 

[Anonymous]

I would like more info on the cc too. I have a crush coral dsb and don't have any problems but it's only a year old.

Wait, Crissy, which is it? Crushed coral or a deep sand bed that you have?

 

[Anonymous]

I would like more info on the cc too. I have a crush coral dsb and don't have any problems but it's only a year old.

Wait, Crissy, which is it? Crushed coral or a deep sand bed that you have?

Sorry I have a dcc bed.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, I asked this in the other thread before I realized you had moved here.

I too had a zero nitrate tank with a large grain bed no vacuuming, however, I had to take it down when it was only 1.5 years old. How long has yours been running?

I ask because I am pretty anti sand bed these days, but, I still have one in one of my tanks as I keep critters who must have a bed to survive. I just clean it when I do a water change.

 

[Anonymous]

I would like more info on the cc too. I have a crush coral dsb and don't have any problems but it's only a year old.

Wait, Crissy, which is it? Crushed coral or a deep sand bed that you have?

Sorry I have a dcc bed.

GOt ya...let me know if you have any problems down the road.

 

[Anonymous]

I would like more info on the cc too. I have a crush coral dsb and don't have any problems but it's only a year old.

Wait, Crissy, which is it? Crushed coral or a deep sand bed that you have?

Sorry I have a dcc bed.

GOt ya...let me know if you have any problems down the road.

I shall.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, I asked this in the other thread before I realized you had moved here.

I too had a zero nitrate tank with a large grain bed no vacuuming, however, I had to take it down when it was only 1.5 years old. How long has yours been running?

I ask because I am pretty anti sand bed these days, but, I still have one in one of my tanks as I keep critters who must have a bed to survive. I just clean it when I do a water change.

lol...and I responded there to you just now that Il post the answer here, only to find you here already...cool!

Hmmm...thinking about it, really it was running about 4-5 years, it was broken down for a move, another 4 years, and just set up again in December.

So I guess I do not have any very LONG durations. The same cc was used each time, with some added in of course to account for any loss.

I guess we wil have to see if anyone else has any longer durations. At first, I was thinking, gee mine has been going for like 8-10 years, but thinking about the moves has changed that duration.

However, I still have never heard of a cc crash, like I hear continually abous sand bed crashes.

This is why I need some input...anyone? Anyone have a cc bed for a long duration and had success or failure? Or problems they can attribute DIRECTLY to haveing cc bed?

Just seems too obvious to me now that BECAUSE of its porous nature, detrius can be more easily consumed. And therefore, not crash as easily, if at all.

 

[Anonymous]

Let me put it another way...detrius build up in cc can lead to nitrate problem, (though really, I dont think so...I think at the time before skimmers and what we know about the aquarium now-I think nitrates MUST be caused by something else, since I have had 0 trates, and it seems others as well) ) which is easily solved by vacuuming (though I dont think it nessecary, long term) but a sand bed that goes foul, can crash the tank completely.

 

[Len]

Either fine sand or course sand (CC) are permeable and highly porous media. Both will trap a lot of detritus, and detritus inevitably breaks down into their nitrogenous compounds.

CC will support a different range of fauna then fine sand beds will. I think both can support a high density of life. I don't know which one supports more biodiversity though. I would think using sandbeds would offer greater biodiversity to the system as a whole since the life that inhabits CCs are likely similar to those that inhabit live rock.

My main issue with CC is it's much harder to vacuum all the way down to the bottom due to the large particulate sizes. After seeing how much detritus collects in BB tanks, I'm a proponent of vacuuming a couple times a year.

As for sandbeds crashing, I've never had this happen in my tanks. I'm sure it can happen (as has been reported), but I imagine there must have been some owner error along the way.

 

[bleedingthought]

Either fine sand or course sand (CC) are permeable and highly porous media. Both will trap a lot of detritus, and detritus inevitably breaks down into their nitrogenous compounds.

CC will support a different range of fauna then fine sand beds will. I think both can support a high density of life. I don't know which one supports more biodiversity though. I would think using sandbeds would offer greater biodiversity to the system as a whole since the life that inhabits CCs are likely similar to those that inhabit live rock.

My main issue with CC is it's much harder to vacuum all the way down to the bottom due to the large particulate sizes. After seeing how much detritus collects in BB tanks, I'm a proponent of vacuuming a couple times a year.

As for sandbeds crashing, I've never had this happen in my tanks. I'm sure it can happen (as has been reported), but I imagine there must have been some owner error along the way.

I meant to ask, Len, how do you vacuum your SB without sucking up the sand itself?

 

[Anonymous]

Either fine sand or course sand (CC) are permeable and highly porous media. Both will trap a lot of detritus, and detritus inevitably breaks down into their nitrogenous compounds.

CC will support a different range of fauna then fine sand beds will. I think both can support a high density of life. I don't know which one supports more biodiversity though. I would think using sandbeds would offer greater biodiversity to the system as a whole since the life that inhabits CCs are likely similar to those that inhabit live rock.

My main issue with CC is it's much harder to vacuum all the way down to the bottom due to the large particulate sizes. After seeing how much detritus collects in BB tanks, I'm a proponent of vacuuming a couple times a year.

As for sandbeds crashing, I've never had this happen in my tanks. I'm sure it can happen (as has been reported), but I imagine there must have been some owner error along the way.

Thanks for the input Len...

I stopped vacuuming, and I noticed a lot more life top to bottom. My layer is about, geez, guessing a bit here, but about 2-3" or so.

When I see dsb, I notice very little life in the top layers, and none below that. It is dead, or seems most likely to be.

You said, theat the life most likely in cc is similar to the lr....aha!!!

Thus the very little detrius I feel that gets collected, eventually long term!

Bare bottom, would, perhaps have MORE detriss, because you dont have the bristles, the little starfish (please, what is that species of starfish called...they look like tiny brittles?) and all of the other usual suspects that usually live in the LR and can devour it.

Dont forget, skimmers now can take care of a lot that usually in the past could not be removed. SO now we have the skimmers taking out the little stuff, and the creatures in the LR and cc taking out the bigger stuff.

I really wanted to start this thread to see where it leads down the road, and as another method maybe that shgould be looked into a bit more.

And it was prompted by hearing about another tank failure and having to start over. Maybe sand really isnt the way to go for the AVERAGE hobbyist.

I am sure sand can be supported easily by the true, pure hobbyist who is devoted to the hobby, but maybe for people like me, who like the hobby, but dont really have the time or energy tomake it their one hobby, but enjoys it, maybe this cc works long term, easier than sand.

Im curious where this debate could go a year from now or more.

I feel sand only works in the ocean, because of the incredible, unfathomable diversity of life in and around it. But in a closed system, I feel it inevitably dies, by creating a dead zone. It seems more and more that is becoming common.

CC seems to solve this one aspect.

 

[Len]

I meant to ask, Len, how do you vacuum your SB without sucking up the sand itself?

The store-bought vacuums all have a long, larger diameter hard tubing on the suction side. This keeps the sand in suspension in that tubing but it rarely gets high enough to go into the smaller vinyl tubing and get sucked out.

 

[Len]

I've never had a problem with sand and don't take special care of it. I siphon half of it every few months, and the other half at a different time. Other then that, it's just there. In the three tanks I've had sandbeds, none has generated anything foul. After 10 years, I was surprised how loose my DSB was in my previous 120 gallon. It was chalk full of life too, mostly with pods, worms and burrowing clams.

 

[Anonymous]

I meant to ask, Len, how do you vacuum your SB without sucking up the sand itself?

The store-bought vacuums all have a long, larger diameter hard tubing on the suction side. This keeps the sand in suspension in that tubing but it rarely gets high enough to go into the smaller vinyl tubing and get sucked out.

Ahhh...I was just going to ask that too, thanks bleed and Len.

So Len, you vacuum, but that isnt the common practice, is it for dsb's? I rarely hear of people vacuuming, which also may be the solution for avoiding a bed crash? (if such a thing exists and isnt caused by something other, as you pointed out)

 

[Anonymous]

I've never had a problem with sand and don't take special care of it. I siphon half of it every few months, and the other half at a different time. Other then that, it's just there. In the three tanks I've had sandbeds, none has generated anything foul. After 10 years, I was surprised how loose my DSB was in my previous 120 gallon. It was chalk full of life too, mostly with pods, worms and burrowing clams.

Got any pics? :wink:

Just busting your chops.

I got ya...

So why do you think people have dsb "crashes"? ANy theories?