Why is there a Collector's Forum?

[Entacmaea]

Hey everyone, just curious about the impetus for this Collector's Forum, perhaps some site admins can chime in. From perusing the posts, it seems that the fish and most of the corals on this forum, by definition, are rare and hard to get, which means they are predominantly taken from the wild? I am wondering about the wisdom of having a forum dedicated to, and thus perpetuating, the collection of organisms that must be taken from the wild at great expense. Are these organisms rare because 1) they are not prevalent in the wild in sufficient numbers to be sustainably collected or 2) they are not suitable for an aquarium. If, by paying hundreds of dollars for rare finds (the allure of which I understand of course) are we perpetuating the collection of animals that shouldn't be, and providing a cash cow for wild collectors thus preventing the incentives for aquaculture of marine ornamentals? Seems similar to paying $50,000 for keeping a cheetah as a house pet, instead of getting a cat. Very cool, but is it responsible?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and wondering how this community can continue to move the hobby toward more sustainable practices. This forum on the surface seems to be counter-intuitive toward that end. I would be interested to hear what people think.

Thanks, Peter

 

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of the reefkeeping hobby requires, initially at the very least, collection from the wild. If you have an issue with this, maybe you should re-examine why you're participating in such a hobby in the first place, especially since it is just a hobby.

 

[Len]

Most rare fish are rare because of one of two reasons: 1) depth of collection and 2) location of collection (and the logistics required to get it to market). Most rare fish are not really rare in the wild. According to the reference books I have, I'd actually say most of the expensive fish rarely seen in the market are abundant where they are found. A handful of expensive and hard-to-collect (all net caught) fish has negligible impact on population. It's the cyanides and mass collection of cheap fish (like yellow tangs) that is the real concern.

 

[Anonymous]

Most rare fish are rare because of one of two reasons: 1) depth of collection and 2) location of collection (and the logistics required to get it to market). Most rare fish are not really rare in the wild. According to the reference books I have, I'd actually say most of the expensive fish rarely seen in the market are abundant where they are found. A handful of expensive and hard-to-collect (all net caught) fish has negligible impact on population. It's the cyanides and mass collection of cheap fish (like yellow tangs) that is the real concern.

What he said

FWIW, almost all "collector" corals are captive, not wild caught. If they weren't captive when being named, they'll be after that initial one.

 

[Len]

Ya. For corals, the collector types are predominantly captive grown. People do not usually pay big bucks for wild corals anymore. It's the "designer/brand name" frags that fetch the huge bucks.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know about that. A lot of the 'designer' corals are chopped shopped wild corals with a brand name slapped on them.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know about that. A lot of the 'designer' corals are chopped shopped wild corals with a brand name slapped on them.

if they weren't captive when being named, they'll be after that initial one.

 

[Len]

Chop shops are good for the environment In the past, one person would buy an entire colony. Now that colony goes to 10-20 different people.

 

[Anonymous]

My point was that people are paying big bucks for wild corals.
Another example - there was a bunch of undata coming in over the last year or so, which was being sold and people where happy to buy the wild frags for the same price as the actual LE. Some people are willing to wait and buy for a lineage, but there are a ton of people who are happy just buying the name on a similar wild coral.

Whether or not the chopped insta designer corals are being captive grown by the insta online vendors is still something to be seen, and isn't helped by the rotating door of common names for the same piece over time.

 

[Anonymous]

Chop shops are good for the environment In the past, one person would buy an entire colony. Now that colony goes to 10-20 different people.

And often 50-100% if those frags don't make it.

 

[Unarce]

Why is there a Collector's Forum?

Mainly because Chip and I wanted our own forum

 

[Entacmaea]

Seamaiden- I think you are missing the point. It is precisely because this hobby has an impact that i strive to lessen it. I don't think that the attitude you seem to suggest(?), of "deal with it or get out of the hobby" is productive. Right now with all the frags and captive raised fish out there, we have the ability to have a zero-impact reef tank.

Part of my post was curiosity (hence the question marks in my post) as to whether such rare corals and fish are mainly wild caught. It seems that rare fish are more often caught from the wild than corals, since as cited, a lot of them are frags. As Thales suggests, I wonder if the designer "named" frags are genuine- do they all come from the parent captive colony that gleaned the original name? I certainly still see alot of wild-caught and expensive/rare colonies for sale.

I'm also not sure I agree with the premise that rare fish are not rare in nature. I would guess that there are a lot fewer leafy sea dragons (recently featured in the collector's forum) out there than yellow tangs? And if rare fish are more difficult to collect, as you cite Len because of depth and distance, I would also assume that there is a much higher mortality rate for these rare fish when they are collected? It would be interesting to find out what percentage make it to market versus what are collected. Is it worth killing 10 fish for every one that is able to be deemed "rare"?

It might be nice to have a separate forum, to balance out things, that showcases zero or near-zero impact reef tanks. I think part of the problem is that people don't think they can achieve as nice a tank using captive bred organisms as wild-caught.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on the chop shop I say. The ones with major repeat customers and stellar feedback must be doing a bit higher ratio then 50-100% DOA/DAA

 

[Len]

Chop shops are good for the environment In the past, one person would buy an entire colony. Now that colony goes to 10-20 different people.

And often 50-100% if those frags don't make it.

Sadly, this is true of hole colonies too I'd personally rather see a colony split up between different systems then to all go to one guy.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on the chop shop I say. The ones with major repeat customers and stellar feedback must be doing a bit higher ratio then 50-100% DOA/DAA

Sure. I just like to chime in when generalized statement float around. For every major outfit getting stellar feedback, how many icky outfits do you think are out there?

 

[Anonymous]

Chop shops are good for the environment In the past, one person would buy an entire colony. Now that colony goes to 10-20 different people.

And often 50-100% if those frags don't make it.

Sadly, this is true of hole colonies too I'd personally rather see a colony split up between different systems then to all go to one guy.

I know what you mean. Sadly, I have seen the chopping make people seem more likely to get frags and not care all that much about replacing it if it dies. The idea that most frags out there are captively grown has taken hold, and I see people running through them like they nothing.

I thing a good part of the issue is not acclimating wild colonies to captive life, and cutting them up to maximize profits ASAP.

 

[Len]

I'm also not sure I agree with the premise that rare fish are not rare in nature. I would guess that there are a lot fewer leafy sea dragons (recently featured in the collector's forum) out there than yellow tangs? And if rare fish are more difficult to collect, as you cite Len because of depth and distance, I would also assume that there is a much higher mortality rate for these rare fish when they are collected? It would be interesting to find out what percentage make it to market versus what are collected. Is it worth killing 10 fish for every one that is able to be deemed "rare"?

The fish that are most often talked about as collectable/rare are deep-water species. It's true that collecting these are a lot more difficult then some other shallow-water species. But because these fish are so difficult (and dangerous) to collect and command such high price tags, collectors pay a lot more diligence collecting them then your bread-and-butter species. I would be interested in seeing mortality data too. I couldn't venture a guess if the rate is higher or lower then "common" fish. Most of the expensive rare fish that I see are relatively pampered from the point of collection to final destination. It's the cheap fish that get "pushed" through the chain of custody as if their lives are worthless.

Leafy sea dragons are unlike other species discussed in the forum. They are nearly threatened, and wild caught specimens would be highly frowned upon if anyone considered them for captivity. Their care is also very specialized. They are being captive bred now though.

It might be nice to have a separate forum, to balance out things, that showcases zero or near-zero impact reef tanks. I think part of the problem is that people don't think they can achieve as nice a tank using captive bred organisms as wild-caught.

We have a captive breeding/propagation forum. Sadly, it is not used very often.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on the chop shop I say. The ones with major repeat customers and stellar feedback must be doing a bit higher ratio then 50-100% DOA/DAA

Sure. I just like to chime in when generalized statement float around. For every major outfit getting stellar feedback, how many icky outfits do you think are out there?

:? Not sure how to take that first part, a dig at me or just some off the cuff comment? How many, dunno, I don't do business with either nor do I seek them out. I do know a couple of the big ones and they get major repeat business. IF they where sending 50-100% DOA/DAA they couldn't get feedback like that, now could they?

 

[Anonymous]

And if rare fish are more difficult to collect, as you cite Len because of depth and distance, I would also assume that there is a much higher mortality rate for these rare fish when they are collected? It would be interesting to find out what percentage make it to market versus what are collected. Is it worth killing 10 fish for every one that is able to be deemed "rare"?

Divers don't risk their lives at 300 feet to collect dead fish. At that depth they don't capture that many fish thus and what they do pays them decently. The mortality is extremelly low with them. The higher the price the more they pamper them.

 

[Anonymous]

Depends on the chop shop I say. The ones with major repeat customers and stellar feedback must be doing a bit higher ratio then 50-100% DOA/DAA

Sure. I just like to chime in when generalized statement float around. For every major outfit getting stellar feedback, how many icky outfits do you think are out there?

:? Not sure how to take that first part, a dig at me or just some off the cuff comment? How many, dunno, I don't do business with either nor do I seek them out. I do know a couple of the big ones and they get major repeat business. IF they where sending 50-100% DOA/DAA they couldn't get feedback like that, now could they?

The first part was just about generalization at the beginning of the thread.

I think the part that is important is that there are tons of insta vendors out the but the public often hears that the big guys are doing good everyone must be the same. I didn't say daa or doa because many die in the first month, many are dismissed as poor husbandry