3 lighting setups... can't decide

[jandree22]

I'm planning out my 75g and I'm torn between 3 lighting choices. 2x 250W SE MH, 2x 150W HQI MH, or 6x T5.

- The 250W MH arguement is that it's obviously the most powerful choice. I won't have to ever really question what will be able to be kept, or where in the tank it must be placed. The glitter lines are a plus. Initial cost - about $400-$500 for retrofit; $700-$800 for finished pendant system.

- The 150W HQI MH arguement is that it's easier on the wallet in both initial cost and electricity consumption. Obviously not as much punch as the 250W, but I'm still getting as much power as the T5 system below, plus the additional benefit of glitter lines. Initial cost - Maybe like $100-$200 off the 250W setup.

- Finally, the T5 arguement is that it allows for more customization in color temps and it runs cooler. It is also easier on electricity than the 250W. Initial cost - Eyeing up this one for $370.


While I don't plan on a SPS dominated tank, I would like to keep some SPS and at least have them color up nicely and show some growth. A clam may also be in the plans. The rest will be primarily LPS and a few lower light polyps/zoos.

The initial cost is a relatively small concern, once and done. My latest understanding is that the bulb replacement schedule is approx 12 months for MH and T5 both, so that price difference would be negligible. The biggest concern is electricity consumption as it's a constant ongoing cost, and the price caps are coming off in 2010 and they're expecting a 40% increase. That would place it from the current 7.1¢/KWhr to approx. about 10¢/KWhr in the future. I posted some math below, let me know if it adds up correctly.

Total wattages
250MH - 608W total (including 2x 54W actinic)
150MH - 408W total (including 2x 54W actinic)
6x T5 - 324W total

@ 10 hrs/day...
250MH - 6080W/day
150MH - 4080W/day
6x T5 - 3240W/day

x 365 days/yr...
250MH - 2,219,200W/yr
150MH - 1,489,200W/yr
6x T5 - 1,182,600W/yr

/ 1000W per KWhr
250MH - 2,219.2 KWhr/yr
150MH - 1,489.2 KWhr/yr
6x T5 - 1,182.6 KWhr/yr

Annual electricity costs @ 7.1¢ per KWhr
250MH - $157.56 ($73.60 more/yr)
150MH - $105.73 ($21.81 more/yr)
6x T5 - $83.96 (baseline)

Annual electricity costs @ 9.9¢ per KWhr @ 2010 40% speculated electricity increase
250MH - $219.70 ($102.63 more/yr)
150MH - $147.43 ($30.36 more/yr)
6x T5 - $117.07 (baseline)


So bottom line, what would you go with? Also, of the lower consumption choices, 150W MH and 6x T5, which would yield higher intensity between the two of them? Any insight here is more than welcome! Thanks

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Damn. Cool dude Ive never actually seen anyone do the math behind powering reef tanks. You should do the math on the whole system per month just for kicks. Anyways Im at this same dilemma. I have an orbit system and a 150 watt MH on my 75 gal. ONe side is leathers and the other is sps. The sps do great 9 inches below the surface and Im seeing visible growth. However if I turn off the Orbit system and leave the 150 watt on the light intensity dramaticallly falls and the 150's light seems to get lost in the deep tank. I think 250 would be the best idea between the two. Im waiting for my LFS to get an order in for 20 units.

As far at T5s I personally feel that VHO bulbs lose their spectrum about twice as fast as MH bulbs. My duel 96 watters seem to lose spectrum after about 6 months. THe corals immediatly perc up when I put in new (pricey) bulbs. Each bulb costing about half as much as the ballast.....every 6 months.....do the math on that one. :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

You asked

 

[Anonymous]

oops

 

[Anonymous]

I'm planning out my 75g and I'm torn between 3 lighting choices. 2x 250W SE MH, 2x 150W HQI MH, or 6x T5.

Ok first question, is what's your goal? Stony coral? Soft Coral? Mix of both? Clams?

Btw I love the analysis you did so I'll toss in my thoughts with them

Total wattages
250MH - 608W total (including 2x 54W actinic)
150MH - 408W total (including 2x 54W actinic)
6x T5 - 324W total

Total power consumption is a very poor measure of how much it'll hit your wallet, it's how long the bulbs stay on. Some advice, 54w t5 bulbs switch out actinic with either ATI Blue Plus, or Geisemann Actinic Plus bulbs, these are both "blue" bulbs, they're not as dark and purply as true actinic bulbs, but they still make colors fluoresce like crazy, and most importantly they actually put a lot of useful light energy into the tank, something like 80-85% of "daylight" (10000k) bulbs.

@ 10 hrs/day...
250MH - 6080W/day
150MH - 4080W/day
6x T5 - 3240W/day

Whoops didn't see this, ok here I think you're running into a bit of an issue, because IMO you should not run MH bulbs 10 hours a day. If you go with either halide setup, I'd shoot for 4-8 hours (depending upon wattage you go with AND color temperature), and run the T5 supplements (here's why I say don't go with "actinic" bulbs) the rest of the time. So if you go with 10000k MH bulbs, I'd put those on shorter because they pack more punch than a 14k or 20k bulb, but leave the blue T5s on while they are, where as with a 20k bulb don't even have the T5 bulbs.
So lets say 10k: 250w@ 4h x 2 + 2 x 54w @ 10h = 3080W
or a 20K: 250w @ 6h x 2 + 2 x 54w @ 4h = 3432W

Where as with T5s you almost always exclusively have to have the on all the time, unless again you can get creative and turn on bulbs in sets until you get "maximum intensity at "noon time". Remember to replicate the reef lighting it's also useful to have the lighting intensity differences mimiced and the Sun ain't overhead 10hours a day, we're hard pressed enough to match the raw power of the sun, So replicate that different angle the sun is coming in at via different intensities & other reef structures in the way, etc.

Annual electricity costs @ 7.1¢ per KWhr
250MH - $157.56 ($73.60 more/yr)
150MH - $105.73 ($21.81 more/yr)
6x T5 - $83.96 (baseline)

Annual electricity costs @ 9.9¢ per KWhr @ 2010 40% speculated electricity increase
250MH - $219.70 ($102.63 more/yr)
150MH - $147.43 ($30.36 more/yr)
6x T5 - $117.07 (baseline)

Do you have a flatrate regardless of how much electricity you use? Because around here we have various tiered rates, oh btw screw you and your 7.1 cents bit! Our first tier starts off at like 11.5 cents ! With reef tanks if you have a "tiered usage" you're tank will most likely put you into higher brackets, and here at 200% usage anything over that you're paying almost 3x as much for each kWh over that 200% mark.

So bottom line, what would you go with? Also, of the lower consumption choices, 150W MH and 6x T5, which would yield higher intensity between the two of them? Any insight here is more than welcome! Thanks

My choice would be the 250w with the above mentioned schedule/changes that I made, as there are more choices than 150W MH bulbs.
If you're really content with having them on all day long, I'd probably go with the T5 set up though, and ditch any purple actinic crap. If you really want dark areas with fluoresence simply put some blue LED moon lights at the corals that do have it after the lights are out.

 

[jandree22]

lol, some of that was hilarious sfsuphysics :lol:

First of all, as mentioned above, I want a few SPS, particularly at least a monti cap, but would like to try some others as well. Then I think the majority will be LPS with a few polyps thrown in for good measure. A clam is on the 'like to have' list, but jury's still out.

Good point about the MH duration vs T5. I wasn't exactly sure what photoperiod was commonly used for them. I'd probably stay at the higher end of 7-8hrs, but regardless that does cut down significantly on that cost... those 2-3 hours 'savings' will add up.

I'm still undecided on MH color temp. If I go 10k, which throws down the most lumens (6.5k is too yellow for me), then obv actinic is a must, which is good because I can fire them up like an hour or two before and after the MH. 14-15k I'm not sure about... I like a little bit of blueness, but not to the extent of looking artificial... I want a nice crisp blue-white color. So if I go with this temp, I may not even use actinics at all. 20k is too blue for me regardless, I think.

As far as the power rate, I'm sure there's probably different tiers, but no clue what they are and where the thresholds like in usage. We conveniently got the utility bill yesterday and I calculated usage vs. cost real quick. Remember that pesky little TMI nuclear meltdown thing back in '79? Well we live only a mile or two up-river from there, and my understanding is our borough gets power directly from them on the cheap. (So you keep bitching about your electricity costs... at least you don't glow at night )

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and throw down the cash for a 250W system. It'll hurt a bit, but I have a feeling I may regret it if I spend a fraction less and only get half the power into my tank. I've been wishy-washy over scraping money together to convert my tank over to a reef, so if I'm going to do it, might as well go all out and do it right. I know what I should get, but just trying to see if there's a close 2nd in performance that's easier on the power draw.

One more question I got, is I have a DIY canopy that's closed on the sides. Would I be okay with a fan blowing through there with 250W MH, or is it best to have the tank completely open on the top and hang the lighting from the ceiling? Reason I ask is obviously retrofit systems would be more affordable and I do have a wooden canopy that would fit it, but if I'm asking for trouble with the water temp or wood (fire) safety, I'll just get a pendant system.

(btw, sorry I'm so chatty today... I'll try to keep any more replies short and sweet, haha)

 

[Anonymous]

I'm proctoring a final now, so I can't type up another essay, I'll save that when I get home. But a couple more questions.

What's the foot print of your tank?
How about the height?
If you do go with MH are you thinking DE or SE?
Reflectors play into it big regardless which route you decide to go.

 

[jandree22]

Hmmm, fun stuff. Summer’s almost here, eh?

Tank is a standard issue 75 gallon… 48” long x 18” wide x 21” tall.

I understand bits and pieces of MH, but never really got the whole concept. Differences between SE or DE, no clue. Differences between Coralife, XM, Ushio, etc. bulbs, no clue. Magnetic or electronic ballasts, very little clue. However, I never really researched deep into them, either… most of my understanding is what I picked up from lurking. I just started reading TRA Vol. 3 and I have yet to get to the Lighting chapter, so undoubtedly some of my questions will be answered there. So while I completely appreciate any assistance or tips I get from your or others, please don’t feel obligated to spend 2 hours typing up the comprehensive idiot’s guide to understanding metal halide :lol:

That being said, I’m at least curious to know why you asked SE or DE?

 

[Anonymous]

SE = Single ended socket bulb
DE = Double ended bulb.

DE bulbs require a glass shield to block the UV rays (your fixture should come with one), SE bulbs have a glass casing which acts as the UV shield.

As to ballast, Electronic is the most energy efficient and will fire most any bulb, magnetic comes in two flavors HQI and non-HQI, you need HQI usually to fire DE bulbs.

Brand names are just that, different bulbs, there are some good, some not so good.

 

[Unarce]

JMHO

The cheapest option is: 250MH - 608W total (including 2x 54W actinic)

If you plan on getting some SPS, it won't stop there. I haven't met anyone who has tried SPS and didn't go nuts over it. The only time someone would step back down to LPS/softies, is due to difficulty or pests. Get the best option from the beginning.

Although, some view T5s as being the economical option, I think they're more than that. Results clearly show that T5s are on par with MH, in terms of output. Corals color up just as nice, or better. However, reefs under fluorescents appear flat and dull. Almost like a freshwater tank.

For me, shimmer lines are a MUST for that overall reef effect.

The 250MH option won't necessarily mean a higher electric bill. Many argue that high intensity lighting at short photo periods yield better results. You can stagger your MH at 2-5 hours for each side. Than have your supplemental lighting on for 10-12 hours.

HTH

 

[jandree22]

with the SE vs DE, is there any performance difference... meaning, does a 250W SE = 250 DE in output intensity? Or is it just personal preference like comparing Toyota to Honda?

unarce, that's kind of what I'm worried about, getting a lesser output system, then kicking myself after realizing I actually wanted to devote myself towards SPS. And I feel you on the 'flat' look... currently my 75 is NO fluorescent lit FOWLR and it's great, but definitely lacks the impact of a MH lit tank. I keep forgetting how nice they are until I visit the LFS and see their display tank lit with MH... , it just adds such a stunning effect to the entire tank.

you guys are really helping me justify the 250W, just so you know. if for nothing else, just for the sake of making sure I don't regret not getting them down the road.

thanks again!

 

[Anonymous]

You'll see more performance difference between individual brands of bulbs much more so than with a SE vs DE debate. Some have argued there are more options for bulbs in the SE line as well. The reason I mentioned it is that with your 18" width you're kind of limited in reflector choices, one of (if not) the best reflector is a lumenarc style reflector which the mini versions are 14.5" I believe which doesn't leave much of any room for T5 lighting. However if you do decide on only a MH setup, then they'd be perfect. I just like the reflectors for the DE bulbs a bit better than SE bulbs (neglecting the lumenarc factor that is )

Karl hit the nail on the head as far as dull look though, I don't care too much about shimmer lines (although who knows I subconsciously do!) but the different lighting intensities are what grab me. I see it on my soft tank, where I run a couple T5s for 10 hours a day, the tank has a blue glow about it, corals pop in color, etc, but other than that meh... then for 4 hours a day staggered at about 2 hours each a couple 175w bulbs pop on, and everything comes alive as various areas at the same tank level have different intensities of light, etc... and yeah ok there's some shimmering So even if you decide not to do SPS anymore the halides will work nicely

 

[dadstank]

First I have to say WHOLLY COINSIDENCE!!! 8O
I have spent the ENTIRE day at work thinking about nothing but what kind of lighting to do on my new tank……

I have been going back and forth between adding to my current setup either:
- Current Nova Extreme 24” HO fixture with T5 10000K and 460 actinic
- Coralife Aqualight 24” HO T5 fixture with the same bulbs
- Current Satellite 20” with Lunar lights with a “Smartpaq” of 10000K and 460 act.

I already have the 250MH, and here is what I am thinking-
Put the MH smack center, the new fixtures on each side (front to back, the tank is 24” wide), and run 2 24” actinic side to side one in front and one in back under the MH….

Turn the center 24” acts on first 8-10 hours, then the compact fixtures on the sides 6-8 hours, and the MH 4-6 hours...

To be honest, I was really considering the satellite with lunar lights until I read the above about the T5s. My hang up is I don’t know anything about the longevity of the “Smartpaq” bulbs, and NOW what if 4 blue bulbs are to much, I can't alter. The “Smartpaq” is a complete unit… But I like the idea of the lunar lights built in… I know I can add a lunar light, that’s not a big deal… all three are basically the same price, size, and relative quality companies… also, the satellite has built-in fan. I think that is a nice feature...

Man this post sounds very much like the debate inside my head!

aye...... time to go home..... :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

DS: Do you have a centerbrace on your tank? If so don't put the light there

the 24" bulb idea could work out nicely, only issues I see is replacing that many bulbs can be a bit pricy since the price difference between 24" isn't much less than 48".

 

[jandree22]

The reason I mentioned it is that with your 18" width you're kind of limited in reflector choices, one of (if not) the best reflector is a lumenarc style reflector which the mini versions are 14.5" I believe which doesn't leave much of any room for T5 lighting. However if you do decide on only a MH setup, then they'd be perfect.

thanks for the tip! I checked them out, and the Lumenarc III Mini Stealth SE's look pretty nice just to use as straight pendants without any canopy at all. I might possibly just go with them and skip the actinic supplementation until I decide whether or not I need it.