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Anonymous

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Yes, I know I had some great idea that a DSB was just what was needed for a tank packed full of diverse life and creating the ideal conditions for LPS/softies and maybe at some stage a Mandarin (with lots of planktonic food etc). Yes, I know a DSB isn't exactly the most popular of ideas right now and I had some crazy idea I'd discovered the niche for making one work. I might have done, but to be honest, I'm no longer sure that I'm the right person to make it work.

I don't have a huge problem with nuisance algae (yet?) and most of my coral is looking perfectly healthy with my parameters reading fine. But I'm finding it almost impossible to get any decent flow going with the sugar sand recommended for best DSB effect. Also I was unable to get the right sand bed CUC (no Nassarius here, no hitchhiking bristle worms or brittle stars, despite other hitchhikers that would be the envy of most), so the bed isn't getting turned over in the way I'd like. If I try and dial up the flow even a fraction, corals get coated in sand, as do the rocks. The lack of flow is I think behind the growth in various types of algae, as the waste from the Strombus snails and now the Blenny is not getting taken away with the flow (and yes, I know I said I wasn't too bothered about having different interesting algae growing - turns out I was wrong about that as well - it's bothering me quite a lot!).

So would I be mad to remove the sand bed now? I'm only 3 months in now (actually more like 2 and a bit) and maybe it's that I need more patience. But on the other hand, I'm tempted to cut my losses now and start again, washing off most of the algae and sand stuck to the rock and rebuilding in a BB/SSB tank.

If the answer is yes, then I will have quite some task on my hand, with no garden to dump sand in, no friend who needs that much sand and very few containers to hold water while I try to do this. But all these factors can be overcome with a bit of planning and a couple of days off.

The key questions in my mind would be:

First and foremost - how? What's the best way to remove the sand bed without causing a whiteout (as far as that is possible). Would siphoning a little out every time I do a water change work? It would take a long time and doesn't easily answer the question I'll need to deal with of what to do with it, but it would negate the need for lots of containers. Is there another way? I might have one friend in need of enough sand for a SSB in his 30"l tank, but haven't asked him yet. If there were a way to remove what he needed, that would be ideal

Secondly - do I go completely bare bottom or shallow sand bed? Is the only advantage to the SSB aesthetics? Or does it increase the variety of critters/fish you can keep (wrasses need a DSB don't they?).

Thanks in advance. Please don't hesitate to tell me not to be a impetuous fool and to stick with a DSB if that's what you think, but "I told you so" posts are also welcome. I can't remember if anyone did tell me explicitly not to have a DSB (they might have done and I'm blocking it out), but don't let that stop you...
 

AZDesertRat

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2 or 3 months isn't enough time for the DSB to mature, I say give it a chance.
My display is a 60" long 100G with 330 lbs of Southdown sugar sand 5-6" deep and I have 2x Koralia Evolution 1400's on a RKL controller switching every 30 seconds, a Ocean Runner 3500 closed loop pump with an Oceans Motions squirt two way switching randomly and a OR 3500 return pump all in it for a total of somewhere around 45x turnover and the sand stays put pretty well.
It takes time for the sand to develop a bacteria coating so it sticks well and proper placement of the powerheads or circulation is a challenge at first, patience is the key and 2 or 3 months has not given it a chance.

My system is approaching 7 years old now and the DSB is just as clean and diverse as it was at 1 year by leaving it alone and using the right clean up crew. No sand sifters or critters that will dig and displace the sand and kill the bacteria only various snails, a few scarlet or mexican red leg hermits sometimes a fighting conch and no starfish as they eat live critters like spaghetti worms, mini brittle stars, small snails and pods.
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for the reply. It's good to hear a voice giving the other perspective, which tells me to slow down and think carefully before I do anything. I certainly won't rush into a decision.

I thought the bacterial coating for the sand grains would have established by now. How long should it take? I don't mind dialling down the powerheads temporarily if need be, but I guess I might have to do some physical removal of algae in the meantime.
 
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Anonymous

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While it's in vogue to bash sandbeds these days, truth is there's nothing wrong with'em. They're a workable approach. The only question is whether it's the approach that you want to take.

If you want to get rid of it entirely I'd suggest
1. buy a cheap tank, something in the neighborhood of 20 gallons or so, put it on the floor near the tank and fill with tank water.
2. Move live rock and inhabitants to 20 gallon. Add a pump, heater, etc - they'll likely be in here for two days.
3. Drain display tank.
4. remove sand. don't worry about the last one percent that will be tricky to get, just get as much as you can.
5. fill tank with freshwater and add salt.
6. The next day siphon out any sand remaining in the tank, losing a few gallons of water in the process.
7. If you want to add a starboard bottom, now is the time.
8. Put the rock back in the tank, then add the inhabitants back.
9. Top off with water from the 20 gallon tank if the water level is low, then discard the rest.

If you want to just reduce it to a shallow layer, do it gradually, removing some daily. If you do it slowly settling won't be an issue because the rock will adjust to the small changes as you go.
 

AZDesertRat

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For algae you need snails like Strombus, Cerith, Astrea, Nerite, Trochus, Turbos and such. Nassarius are more detritus eaters rather than algae anyway.

Tell us more about your system, size, filtration, lighting, what sand do you have and how much/deep, live rock, what do you use for water and salt, what powerheads or flow and how are they arranged, livestock etc.
 
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Anonymous

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I've had deep sand bed, shallow sand bed, no sand/bb - I hated the bare bottom tank. I like the life and growth that comes with a live sand bed. I made an upside down T with holes drilled along one side - a power head attached to the up pipe blew enough current across the bed - Back to front. It worked well until Caroline started encrusting the pipe but that took a couple of years. I'd say slow down and give the bed a chance you can always remove it and until you find something else to turn your sand over you do it. A piece of rigid air line tube and just swish it around a bit.
 
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_Andy":u44glcbn said:
It worked well until Caroline started encrusting the pipe but that took a couple of years.

Guess you were taking things slowly with her, then.
 
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Eww, that's my grandmother's name... What a slip, that... :oops:
 

AZDesertRat

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If its to be a fully functioning deep sand bed you do not want to disturb it or turn it over. Only clean approx the top 1/4" and then do it in small sections at a time so as to not disturb the anaerobic and anoxic bacteria zones.
 
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I would pull it, but thats no surprise. :D If you like the look go with a inch or so - IMO anything more than that just takes up valuable tank real estate.

I run Remote DSB's for NNR.
 
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Anonymous

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Well, thanks guys, a lot of useful input there, from both sides of the debate. Very useful to have that idea for how to tackle the removal if I were to go about it CJ, thanks (I'd likely print it out and use it as a manual if I went through with this. Thanks Tracy and Andy for the wise words of patience. I will give it a bit longer. Rich - I know your perspective and I respect it! I'm certainly starting to cast longing glances at SPS in my LFS (which specializes in them) and wondering what sort of tank I could set up for them. Maybe if I decide to pull the sand bed or for my next tank...

AZDesertRat":1jl88e6x said:
For algae you need snails like Strombus, Cerith, Astrea, Nerite, Trochus, Turbos and such. Nassarius are more detritus eaters rather than algae anyway.

Tell us more about your system, size, filtration, lighting, what sand do you have and how much/deep, live rock, what do you use for water and salt, what powerheads or flow and how are they arranged, livestock etc.

AZDesertRat, thanks again for your input. I think I may need a few more grazers actually. At the moment I have two Trochus and four cowries (3 Cypraea annulus, 1 Cypraea monetea), plus a few incidental hitchhiking grazers that don't have much impact I assume (1 small columbellid snail, a few tiny sea slugs, possibly what looks like a couple of tiny ceriths if I'm lucky). The type of grazer I can get here is limited compared to the US (I'm in Japan). I'm currently wondering whether to rethink my decision not to get hermits for this tank (actually, I spotted the tiniest, whitest hermit you've ever seen the other day on my sand bed - but he was a hitchhiker and I've no idea how long he will last - literally less than the size of a grain of rice). Either that or I could get a cuke to keep it spotless and turned over...

The tank is 64g (90x60x45cm, slightly smaller than a 36"x24"x18"). I have two Tunze 6055 Nanostreams on a Tunze wavemaker, 1 x 150w MH + 4 x 24w T5, an Octopus Super Reef 1000 Internal skimmer, drop-in fuge (small - with a 5" sand bed, some chaeto and a few tiny pieces of LR rubble) in the sump (60cmx45cmx45cm), return pump is a Tunze Silence (792g version). I use instant ocean and have a 4 stage RO/DI filter to make all my water. Last time of checking nitrates were 0, but I haven't tested for phosphates. The sand bed in the display tank is about 5" deep (flow has meant it's unevenly deep) and made up of 90lbs of Caribsea Aragamax sugar-sized sand and 60lbs of Caribsea Aragamax Oolitic select. For live rock, I have about 40-50lbs total (it was sold by dimension, so I'm not sure how much in total).

Current livestock is limited. A couple of fish - one tail spot blenny, one N. helfrichi and a variety of small coral - one Turbinaria frag, one R.florida, one R.yuma (ok, with a tiny offshoot as well) and four zoa frags. I have just ordered an Acan, a Favia and a Alveopora japonica for the tank though, so it's going to suddenly look a lot more stocked in terms of coral. Tank thread here - http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic136894.html
 
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Anonymous

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Tom,

I have removed a couple of DSB's from mature systems. We did it all at once by siphoning the sand out quickly, followed by a large water change and a canister filter full of carbon. No significant problems to the remaining animals in the tank.

Again, the main reason I would remove it would be to reclaim 4-5 inches of display space in the tank. :D
 
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Anonymous

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That is actually a powerful motivator for me as well. Not the one which started me thinking about it, but once it occurred to me, it was a striking thought. My guess is that I will stick with the DSB for a while longer and continue to cogitate. I'm certainly persuaded that there are compelling reasons not to have a DSB sometimes, but that maybe it's rather early for me to decide that I don't want one.

Thanks for your input - huge amounts of respect for your expertise and opinion.

FWIW (and it's embarrassing to post pictures of my early work in progress), here's a recent number of tank shots (also just posted to my tank thread). Photos are zoomable by clicking.

Left side (spot the Blenny)

[rimg]http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab238/TheEscapedApe/Long%20awaited/P1010677.jpg[/rimg]

Right side

[rimg]http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab238/TheEscapedApe/Long%20awaited/P1010676.jpg[/rimg]
 

AZDesertRat

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No reason why you cannot have SPS and a DSB too:
1-24-07004.jpg

1-24-07005.jpg

2006_08_23011.jpg

2006_08_21033.jpg

2006_08_21025.jpg
 
A

Anonymous

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Now I feel really embarrassed about my tank pics. :oops: :lol:

Seriously - really impressive tank, thanks for posting. I might attempt SPS later on, once things are more established. There are a few spots that might suit a monti or porites if I get brave.

Edit: blimey, I've just noticed - is one side of your back wall covered completely in zoas? 8O
 
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Anonymous

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mad? nah... just changing your mind. I'm not a fan of sand beds for exactly the reason you mention, mad flow. Granted I think the look of a sand bed is great when it's nice pearly white and clean however that takes quite a bit of maintenance to keep it that way IMO (or replacing of the sand). Besides I have corals growing on the bottom pane, so who cares if there's no sand their :D

No sand bed can restrict a few types of fish you should keep however, but in the grand scheme of things, you can always get a different type of fish :D
 
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Anonymous

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AZDesertRat":vxsuv2vt said:
A DSB should not restrict flow, the tank in the pics has 40x-45x turnover.

"Mad flow" = twice that, at least. In the world of propeller pumps, turnover of 90x-100x is not uncommon.
 

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