New Member Deep Sand Bed?

[benknow]

Hi Everyone
I'm a new member and after a long hiatus I decided to return to the hobby. I left the hobby ten years ago primarily because of the lack of funds but I was also tired of the entire pet industry and what was happening to our natural reefs. It seems like some things have changed in ten years. I am really pleased to see that corals are now being grown, traded and fragged. The entire industry seems to have grown a little bit more responsible and I'm happy to be a part of the community.

Anyway, I started a 30 gallon cube aquarium back in July with about 70 pounds of live rock. I installed a 10 gallon sump with a precision marine protein skimmer, chiller and I also installed a remora aqua c hang on protein skimmer. I'm using 120 watt power compact lights. After a lot of reading and previous experience I decided to go Bare Bottom and I found the recent thread about going bare bottom very interesting. The deep sand bed methods seems to be recent ideology. My question are for those using deep sand beds . . . Why? I have read all the explaination regarding anareobic bacteria but firmly believe that the anareobic bacteria within the live rock should be sufficient to control nitrates providing adequate nutrient export. So what are the advantages to using a deep sand bed??


edited by houseofha!

 

[nanoreefer22]

Nice tank...but I'm breaking my neck to look at it :lol: .

Welcome to MR
-Kris

 

[jhale]

hey benknow, welcome back to the hobby, and welcome to manhattan reefs.

I'll let someone else answer your dsb question

 

[joe]

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/livesand.htm

 

[House of Laughter]

Benknow,

Welcome back to the hobby - you're really going to like what MR is doing for the reefing community -

My perspective on BB vs DSB - fish and all other aquatic life don't live in the ocean with a glass bottom

I personally like the look, the diversity in animals and what shape it naturally takes when you leave it alone.

Again, welcome back

House

 

[inkblue]

welcome ...hope you got your reef on

 

[jhale]

- fish and all other aquatic life don't live in the ocean with a glass bottom

chomp, chomp, chomp, <----- me biting the bit.
I don't want to start a bb-dsb debate.
but we can't base out tanks on what happens in the ocean.
sand looks nice, when it's clean, but it's not perfect for all applications.

 

[jawwad2004]

I have about 4" of sand in most parts of my tank to low points to about 1inch, and my sand is crystal clear. I just have a bunch of stuff settling in my left corner, but I made sure it does settle in that corner so I can vacuum it up. I have about 60 nassi snails, 2 white stars, and worms in the sand which keep it clean. I really doubt I will ever do barebotton, however you can achieve way more flow with a BB, but oh wellz (I dont think I helped you in anyway with my thoughts on your situation, sorry, lol)

 

[marrone]

Ok here goes....You'll notice with BB tanks that people have place a maxium flow to make sure there isn't any accumlation of waste and debrie on the bottom of the tank also people will use filter socks to trap even more debrie. With a DBS, if properly maintain, the organizism will use all that waste. DBS & Plemums work very well and do a great job of keeping the nitrates in the tank very low.

BB are the "in thing" right now, which they were also the "in thing" back in the mid 80's also. You'll find that all these methods do work but you need to make sure that they're setup and working correctly.

 

[ShaunW]

Why? I have read all the explaination regarding anareobic bacteria but firmly believe that the anareobic bacteria within the live rock should be sufficient to control nitrates providing adequate nutrient export. So what are the advantages to using a deep sand bed??

If you don't mind my asking (I would like to learn and discuss this also, ), why do you think that anaerobic bacteria live in live rock. Andre mentioned this also (I think, sorry if I am misrepresenting). Where is this information coming from?, because as a microbiologist by profession I don't think that is possible. Firstly anaerobic bacteria really smell bad, everybody has smelled them. They are the rotten egg smell we smell when we disrupt a DSB (mosly H2S, a by product of anaerobic growth). If live rock had anaerobic pockets then it would smell also, which it doesn't. Secondly, all the flow is going to cause oxygen to enter every nook and cranny in a live rock, so at most it may be microaerophilic, but microaerophilic bacteria are not nessesarily the best nitrate reducing organisms.

I have a DSB because it was the best thing at the time (8 years ago) and I didn't know any better. The concept of DSB as a filtration device for reef tanks was firmly imbedded in the thinking at that time, and I just followed the herd. But I do think a sand bed looks better that most BB tanks.

WELCOME BACK TO THE HOBBY AND TO MANHATTAN REEFS, !

 

[jhale]

If you don't mind my asking (I would like to learn and discuss this also, ), why do you think that anaerobic bacteria live in live rock.

I think over the years live rock got a reputation as the ultimate filter for reef tanks. along the way all bacteria got lumped together and now people might not know one from the other. I don't often hear people naming the bacteria that live in the rock, so one would just think the same bacteria that lives in a DSB would be living in the rock. and the bacteria most often mentioned is anaerobic.

your right anaerobic bacteria would have a tough time living in the rock in our tanks. as I understand it the anaerobic bacteria live starting at 1.5" below the sand. this is fine packed sand we are talking about not corse sand or crushed coral, in other words an extremely dense and O2 starved area. Now of course rock is dense, but I don't think it's as dense all over as a tightly packed sand bed.

one thing to point out for those that have shallow sand beds, without a depth of at least two inches the sand is only acting to trap the detritus, it's not helping to break it down at all. so unless you keep it very clean, you've only created a nice looking nitrate sponge.

 

[FastUno]

one thing to point out for those that have shallow sand beds, without a depth of at least two inches the sand is only acting to trap the detritus, it's not helping to break it down at all. so unless you keep it very clean, you've only created a nice looking nitrate sponge.

I believe this to be true too. If you don't then just go to your shallow SB & stir it. Do you see a lot of cloudiness & detritus floating around? Is there anyone who does not?

I feel a BB setup is better for a reef, but I also believe that sand looks better & more natural. BTW, how do you keep the sand clean? Is siphoning the only way?

 

[Deanos]

I believe this to be true too. If you don't then just go to your shallow SB & stir it. Do you see a lot of cloudiness & detritus floating around? Is there anyone who does not?

I feel a BB setup is better for a reef, but I also believe that sand looks better & more natural. BTW, how do you keep the sand clean? Is siphoning the only way?

Well I have Southdown as my shallow SB. It got cloudy the day I put it in, before any detritus and still does if I stir it up :tongue1:. I've never siphoned it and it still looks fine to me. Nitrates test zero and I have no algae problems, then again the tank isn't yrs old either. I guess I'm lucky for now. Anyhow, I don't have much SPS so a BB never appealed to me.

 

[FastUno]

Deanos, how many fish do you have? Can you run a Tunze 6060 in your tank, or will it be too much current?

How about someone with the coarser Aragalive Fiji Pink LS?

 

[jhale]

the coarser the substrate is the more garbage will collect in it.

I would think the 6060 in a 65 gallon tank would end up blowing things off the rocks.

and if you have any soft corals in the tank they would be shredded.

not to mention the mini-sandstorm

 

[Deanos]

Deanos, how many fish do you have?

Too many some would say :tongue1:. 10 to be exact.

Can you run a Tunze 6060 in your tank, or will it be too much current?

A Tunze...no need. I'm happy with the flow my 2 Seio 820s and mag 7 return provide.

 

[aaron]

Julian Sprung and Charles Dalbeek refer to both anerobic and aerobic bactrial zones existing on live rock. Its in the reef aquarium handbook Vol 1.
The go into quite a lot of depth about why LR is a suitable filter because of the fact that there are areas colonised by aerobic bactrial adjacent to anerobic zones or low aerobic zones inside the pores of the rock which allows for more complete mineralisation of dissolved organics (that's what they say off the top of my head i havent read that bit in a while). Anyway that's where i heard it. you would know more about it than me shaun but i didnt think all anaerobic bactria produced hydrogen sulfide.

 

[marrone]

When I broke down my hex and removed the DSB there was hardly any bad smell at all and the tank was up for 2+ years. I never had a nitrate problem or hair algae in the tank and it was pretty well stocked.

 

[ShaunW]

Julian Sprung and Charles Dalbeek refer to both anerobic and aerobic bactrial zones existing on live rock. Its in the reef aquarium handbook Vol 1.
The go into quite a lot of depth about why LR is a suitable filter because of the fact that there are areas colonised by aerobic bactrial adjacent to anerobic zones or low aerobic zones inside the pores of the rock which allows for more complete mineralisation of dissolved organics (that's what they say off the top of my head i havent read that bit in a while). Anyway that's where i heard it. you would know more about it than me shaun but i didnt think all anaerobic bactria produced hydrogen sulfide.

Aaron, your right not all anaerobic bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide, but most of them do smell bad (generally and not a rule by all means). Anaerobic bacteria are unable to withstand coming into contact with oxygen, it is toxic to them. So "maybe" there could be some anaerobic pockets present in live rock, I just don't think that it would be big enough to have a substantial effect on nitrate reduction to the entire aquarium. I just don't see it, but a special rock structure, with zones without oxygenated water flowing in, almost sealed from the surrounding environment (just like the lower layer of a DSB), would host anaerobes. My rock in my tank, doesn't have those properties, but who knows what someones elses rock may do.