Unlimited Edition

[James]

I came from reefcentral, It was great and I learned a lot there but have really become enamored with this site and some of the members on here (more community, less bs). At MR, I have been treated with nothing but respect and goodwill, from people lending me tanks to people just giving me frags for no good reason.

This may not make me any friends but I am going to do it anyway. Let me make this caveat before I begin: I have no problems with RESPONSIBLE LFS's, Vendor's or importers. This country relies on the free market and I have no problem with that. In the interest of time and brevity (yeah right) I am going to repost something I wrote just over a week ago.



"I have not been in the hobby nearly as long as you but I started in 1999 and just restarted 2 tanks last month and have noticed some serious changes in the "hobby" that I don't know how I feel about. On one hand, there are some "new to the hobby" amazing corals out there but on the other, the prices have gotten out of control. I understand the free market and people have freedom to price their frags or colonies as they see fit. That being said, I think that this hurts the hobby in the end. People are taking advantage and keeping costs high, buying for one price and then selling it for twice that. This is perfectly legal and most would argue that it is good business sense ... they would be wrong, in the long term it drives the costs up for all involved. This creates this elitist "I have a nicer car, house, boat, tank, coral than you do" attitude and it makes me nauseous. I did not get into this hobby for anyone but me, I like the relaxation that staring at a reeftank gives me, plain and simple. This hobby is a unique one in that our supplier (the ocean) is becoming more and more out of sync and the world's reefs are in pretty bad shape. On a small scale tank raised corals would not even dent the decline in worldwide coral populaition but with a grander vision, this hobby could be more important than simply a hobby. Coral propagation methods should be applauded and made as easy and fairly priced as possible. People will still make money, that is fine, but imnsho people should not be slapping LE on everything and pricing it out of this world. There is a greater social responsibility in this hobby than say toy trains or model cars. Sorry for my rant, :bablefish"


So, I complained, and now I am going to pledge to do something about it. Granted, my tank is full of just frags. Nothing huge... hell, nothing bigger than a frag post. This won't be my tank forever, eventually my frags will grow out. When they do, I am making a promise right now:

I will not mark up the price on anything I buy or get for free. If I get a good deal, I am passing that on, if I get a freebie, I am giving it as a freebie. In some cases I am going to sell a frag for less than I paid for it.

I am not in this hobby for a profit, if you are that's for you and I am not judging. I am asking anyone who agrees with my "mission" of keeping the hobbyist as a hobbyist and not someone who has plans of striking it rich peddling coral frags to simply pay it forward. Many of you already do this and to you I say thank you. As for me, I am going to have my signuture be simple: U.E. That stands for Unlimited Edition. Anything in my tank is going to be U.E. and I am going to spread it around as much as possible. My rule is simple and inspired by this site, if you buy something from my tank (in the future), simply sell it for the same price you got it for or lower. If you want to let it grow and frag it 10x, you will still make a little $. This will make sure that coral is getting spread around like a dime store hooker. If you agree with my thought pattern post a "U.E." in your signature. Let's make this community shine brighter than it already does.

-James

P.S.I really don't want personal attention from this, there are some people on this site who practice this philosophy without even thinking about it and giving it some stupid acronym like U.E.) I simply am putting what I believe in right there in my sig.

Second post script. If you want to debate and disagree with me that is more than welcome. Please keep it respectful, I really do not want drama nor immaturity.

 

[D1J8Z]

I think you making this pledge will not make a difference in all respect. People who tend to sell corals cheaper tend to have a coral that grow like weeds and same go for people who give corals away.Unfortunately this hobby is very expensive and most of us need to sell some of our corals at the "going rate" to stay in the hobby.

 

[prattreef]

:thrash: I'd also suggest you check out the DBTC (Don't Break the Chain) forum as 1 possible way to further your vision.

 

[James]

I think you making this pledge will not make a difference in all respect. People who tend to sell corals cheaper tend to have a coral that grow like weeds and same go for people who give corals away.Unfortunately this hobby is very expensive and most of us need to sell some of our corals at the "going rate" to stay in the hobby.

I hear you and understand this hobby is expensive and the going rate is expensive. I am not asking anyone to bankrupt themselves out of the hobby, but if you can afford to sell the frag of LE that you got for the same price or a little cheaper, this creates a domino effect. With lots of people doing this, the prices of the corals would come down which would benefit all real hobbyists. Of course, it is all good in theory, Personally, I am willing to put it in practice. I know there are others who are as well.
As someone on this site said recently, it only takes 1...

 

[prattreef]

Completely disagree with this. People who give their corals away for free tend to let their corals actually grow before fragging them and are not caught up in the hype of collector madness that has become the seeming standard of modern day reefkeeping in this country that is driven by high priced "designer" corals that command a price that makes the buyer feel compelled to frag everything the second it sprouts another "eye".

If you actually let things grow into real colonies, giving frags of them away for free or cheaply is of no consequence to you or your wallet.

 

[James]

:thrash: I'd also suggest you check out the DBTC (Don't Break the Chain) forum as 1 possible way to further your vision.

Thanks, I looked into it and talked with Kris about it, I am going to do that once I have my tank where I want it. As for now I am heading to the freebie section to post a piece of xenia or 2.

 

[SWITCH420]

Im down with the idea see what happens.I can frag my kenya tree to pass it along grows fast.

 

[D1J8Z]

Completely disagree with this. People who give their corals away for free tend to let their corals actually grow before fragging them and are not caught up in the hype of collector madness that has become the seeming standard of modern day reefkeeping in this country that is driven by high priced "designer" corals that command a price that makes the buyer feel compelled to frag everything the second it sprouts another "eye".

If you actually let things grow into real colonies, giving frags of them away for free or cheaply is of no consequence to you or your wallet.

why do you sell coral ?

 

[D1J8Z]

Im down with the idea see what happens.I can frag my kenya tree to pass it along grows fast.

Great example of a coral that grows like a weed and is given away often. Not saying its not a nice gesture just helping prove my point.

 

[prattreef]

Me? You can search this entire site through years of postings and you will find 2 threads in a few week period of each other where I sold a bunch of frags after a major pruning because I needed the $$$ that one time and hated every freaking minute of selling. I don't sell corals pretty much ever, so you are talking to the wrong guy.

 

[SWITCH420]

a lot of corals grow fast some people have sps grow faster then others ect it depends on the tank so i disagree with u yourbed.

 

[D1J8Z]

Me? You can search this entire site through years of postings and you will find 2 threads in a few week period of each other where I sold a bunch of frags after a major pruning because I needed the $$$ that one time and hated every freaking minute of selling. I don't sell corals pretty much ever, so you are talking to the wrong guy.

Right but you needed the money and you turned to your tank to make it, doesn't matter how many times it was that's what I am trying to point out. Sometimes we need money for ANY reason and a lot of the times we turn to our tanks.

I think your prices were great sure but at the same time did you pay premium prices to obtain your coral?

 

[prattreef]

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.

 

[D1J8Z]

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.

Your one of the few people I guess that have been fortunate enough to be given to opportunity to obtain and grow coral for next to nothing.

 

[James]

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.

+1

This is the spirit that we should have. There will be dissenters, the goal is that this remains a hobby instead of a perceived get rich quick or even slow scheme, which I feel it has become for too many.

 

[D1J8Z]

+1

This is the spirit that we should have. There will be dissenters, the goal is that this remains a hobby instead of a perceived get rich quick or even slow scheme, which I feel it has become for too many.

How long have you been in the hobby? What equipment do you have?

 

[James]

How long have you been in the hobby? What equipment do you have?

Not like I need to do this but here is a post from my other account, which I don't use often at all.... this has no relevance but maybe it will keep your implied "experience" comment in check.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16214974#post16214974

James

 

[House of Laughter]

Prattreef, You should be smacked on the hand for selling 2-3" Tyree Undata frags for $15 - how dare you!! :iamwithst

I agree with you Educator, I would never charge more for a frag that I paid for it from an MR member. This has been a motto of ours for any of our culturing corals. Stuff that is maricultured, then recultured is more difficult to price based on costs of maintaining and growing that coral into profitability - not very easy to do and often fails winding up as a loss - you'd be surprised how often this happens.

Wish we could have donated to your school this time around, but we just donated to the intermediate school in newark and gave them a bunch of frags at the swap - next time around, we'll hit you for stuff - and guess what, if you want, I'll charge you $15 for them so when they do grow out, you can make a few bucks back on it in the hopes you can sustain the tanks without having to worry about the schools budget reductions and how you're going to excite and stimulate your students with something unique as building and keeping an closed ecosystem like a natural reef. Yo're welcome to do this with whatever we donate to you - I would want more for the students than you having to give it away, but be reasonable about passing it on at a cost -

The etiquette of this is often muddied by the market forces that drive people into frenzies over "name brand importance" or collectors who just want it fr the sake of having it.

Guess what, we have 5, yes, 5 Tyree watermelon chalices that we got on consignment from a reefer/customer - we'll be giving 2 of them away to deserved members and selling the other 2 keeping one for brood stock - the cost of growing these over the past year puts us at about even on cost - not a smart business modal, but now I'll have 2 resources to tap in the event we have a crash or need to redo our brood stock

There are ways to make this work, and at the same time be profitable - "hack and rack" is really only the true way to make money on it IMO.

Anyway, now I am babbling - feel free to call me anytime to talk about this stuff, I find it fascinating conversation and am still seeking a way to drive the costs down on culturing - By the way, this is exactly how MR started, with this very sentiment in mind.

House

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.

 

[D1J8Z]

Not like I need to do this but here is a post from my other account, which I don't use often at all.... this has no relevance but maybe it will keep your implied "experience" comment in check.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16214974#post16214974

James

Its not for "experience" it was a general question and I assure you my intentions were not to insult.

For example - Recently I have been considering ordering some new equipment so to offset costs I have been selling coral.

 

[House of Laughter]

Prattreef, You should be smacked on the hand for selling 2-3" Tyree Undata frags for $15 - how dare you!! :iamwithst

I agree with you Educator, I would never charge more for a frag that I paid for it from an MR member. This has been a motto of ours for any of our culturing corals. Stuff that is maricultured, then recultured is more difficult to price based on costs of maintaining and growing that coral into profitability - not very easy to do and often fails winding up as a loss - you'd be surprised how often this happens.

Wish we could have donated to your school this time around, but we just donated to the intermediate school in newark and gave them a bunch of frags at the swap - next time around, we'll hit you for stuff - and guess what, if you want, I'll charge you $15 for them so when they do grow out, you can make a few bucks back on it in the hopes you can sustain the tanks without having to worry about the schools budget reductions and how you're going to excite and stimulate your students with something unique as building and keeping an closed ecosystem like a natural reef. Yo're welcome to do this with whatever we donate to you - I would want more for the students than you having to give it away, but be reasonable about passing it on at a cost -

The etiquette of this is often muddied by the market forces that drive people into frenzies over "name brand importance" or collectors who just want it for the sake of having it.

Guess what, we have 5, yes, 5 Tyree watermelon chalices that we got on consignment from a reefer/customer - we'll be giving 2 of them away to deserved members and selling the other 2 keeping one for brood stock - the cost of growing these over the past year puts us at about even on cost - not a smart business modal, but now I'll have 2 resources to tap in the event we have a crash or need to redo our brood stock

There are ways to make this work, and at the same time be profitable - "hack and rack" is really only the true way to make money on it IMO.

Anyway, now I am babbling - feel free to call me anytime to talk about this stuff, I find it fascinating conversation and am still seeking a way to drive the costs down on culturing - By the way, this is exactly how MR started, with this very sentiment in mind.

House

Sorry I'm not letting you slide here. I've given away a gazillion more corals for free on this site than the amount I made selling that one time. The point is, for some of us, this a hobby and not an opportunity to make money or even break even and for some, unlike your quite strong suggestion, it is not cheap fast growing "worthless" corals that we give away, but simply any coral that has grown to the point of needing fragging. If I pay $80 for a coral, I buy it because I want it. If It grows to the point of being fraggable, I don't view it as an opportunity to recoup my $80, I view it as an opportunity to spread the coral around.

This is the way the hobby used to be for the majority of us. Sadly, IMO it is now something very different.

And no I didn't pay a premium for most of my coral, in fact I didn't pay at all for much of it which is exactly my point. Most of it came from trading with or being paid back by like minded hobbyists.