Orange Monti Cap - Bleaching

[alrha]

My Humongous Orange Monti Cap is bleaching for some reason (the 'skin' is just peeling of the skelaton). Only one part of it bleached, but i hope i dont lose the whole huge colony. i also noticed my stag bleacing from the bottom.
i noticed it only a little on friday, and by tonight i noticed it is a big part of it already.

my params are:
pH 8.0+
Ca 375+ ppm
Alk 3.8+ meq/L
Mg ~ 1500 ppm
PO4 ~0
Nitrates ~0

i dont believe it is my paramaters as they have been in that range for quite some time.

the only changes this week were:
1) my center MH (400W) was fixed and running again (3 hrs / night).
2) changed carbon / phosguard a week ago.
3) finally winning the algae war in my tank.
4) cleaned up my sump last week (rinsed off the rocks etc in tank water).

i chose to leave the MHs off tonight in case it may be due to the lighting. it is just strange as i have a monti confucia even closer to the light, and it has not been affected. also the stag was bleached by the base (further from the light) and not from the tips which are closer, so i am not so sure it is the lighting, but i dont see what else would cause this sudden bleaching.

FWIW, my xenia (usually a more sensitive coral) appear just fine.

 

[nanoreefer22]

If the skin is peeling off this isn't bleaching, its either RTN or STN. Sounds like STN but if its peelin rapidly and it continues its RTN.

If it comes to it you may have to frag off pieces of living tissue far from where it's died off.

 

[jackson6745]

Albert as kris said this is not bleaching. Your alk is a little high and I am curious about your MG level. Is it 1500 or is it off the charts? MG is toxic at higher levels and that could be the cause.

I don't think its the lighting. 90% of the time when I see STN in my tank it is because of a high alk swing. Check your copper too just in case

 

[alrha]

Thanks guys.
i too didnt think it would be the lighting.

The Mg is 1500, i havent dosed any in probably 6 months (at least) yet it stays there, which is strange. there must be some in either the "Reef Buffer" or "Reef Advantage Calcium" i dose.

Alk at 3.8meq/L is high? I always targeted an alk for 4.0 balanced with a Ca of 440.

and why would that cause STN (or RTN)?

would it eventually stop on its own and heal itself? or at my at risk of losing the entire colony? a frag of that baby just really wouldnt be much compared to that entire colony.

 

[nanoreefer22]

Is the skin still peeling off or did it stop?

 

[spykes]

damn my MG is high too, im wondering if that is my problem, its almost off the charts.

 

[House of Laughter]

Al,

RTN and STN have not been scientifically proven to be caused by one thing or another - the more common thougth is that there might be a bacterial infection that causes it. The only way to stop it (that I have found) is stable water parameters and sometimes a Reef Dip (iodine) which slows it so that the water parameters can catch up and stop it.

Also, Caps are extremely sensative to alk swings or alk extremes as well as high salinity - I didn't se your SG listed on your parameters.

House

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

There is strong evidence to suggest that RTN/STN is caused by a gram negative bacteria (Vibrio sp.) Do a search on google for Bingman and RTN or vibrio. The whole argument between Borneman and Bingman- I STRONGLY side with Bingman. Chloramphenicol (CAM) stopped RTN where other antibiotics did not. (Other antibiotics that are somewhat stable in salt water also crashed the system, so it could not have been an ORP thing as was suggested)

The only sure fire way of stopping it is to use chloramphenicol (an antibiotic) but you need a MONSTER skimmer to clean up the water when the tank crashes. AND IT WILL CRASH! OR be ready to do a 100% water change as soon as the tank crashes. (The water will turn milky white and the skimmer goes flat) Or you can try to treat the corals in a QT with CAM. (You can only get CAM through a vet, it is not approved for Human use for good reason- some people in very rare instances can die from it.)

I went through the above, it was not pretty, but at the time I had my ETS-1000. I had to get the skimmer kick started by adding drops of clorox to the intake of the skimmer feed pump.

Basically, RTN/STN is a symptom of a "bigger" problem in your system 90% of the time. It is equivalent to a bad flu bug, in an open system the corals can recover and it does not spread as rapidly. In our closed systems the domino effect takes over very quickly.

-Alfred

 

[alrha]

Is the skin still peeling off or did it stop?

i just logged in to report that this morning, on my way to work, it appeared that the skin stopped peeling off for the most part.
i am assuming this means that it stoped!

 

[alrha]

damn my MG is high too, im wondering if that is my problem, its almost off the charts.

depends on how high your chart goes.

 

[alrha]

Al,

RTN and STN have not been scientifically proven to be caused by one thing or another - the more common thougth is that there might be a bacterial infection that causes it. The only way to stop it (that I have found) is stable water parameters and sometimes a Reef Dip (iodine) which slows it so that the water parameters can catch up and stop it.

Also, Caps are extremely sensative to alk swings or alk extremes as well as high salinity - I didn't se your SG listed on your parameters.

House

That Cap is WAY TOO BIG for a dip. it wont even fit into any bucket i have, i'd need to use a Brute garbage can!

My salinity was at 54.5 (on my pinpoint monitor) - i brought it back down to 53 last night (where i usually keep it).

i did add alk this week to bring it back up (as it slowly declined to 3.2 meq/L while i was away for a week). I guess that may be the culprit. i was just surprised as that cap has been in my system and stable for over a year and never showed any signs of stress. As a matter of fact, in my 2.5 yrs of reefing, i have never had STN or RTN in spite of all the swings my tank has taken over the years (hence i really dont know much about it).
i do understand however, that it may at times just occur for no known reason. but i am a believer that in a healthy system, the chances of it occuring must be lower as compared to a stressed system.
i guess i was just getting lucky and gotta be a little more careful.

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Glad to hear that it stopped! I'm curious- what equipment are you running on your system? (UV, Ozone?) What type of circulation do you have running?

-Alfred

 

[alrha]

The only sure fire way of stopping it is to use chloramphenicol (an antibiotic) but you need a MONSTER skimmer to clean up the water when the tank crashes. AND IT WILL CRASH! OR be ready to do a 100% water change as soon as the tank crashes. (The water will turn milky white and the skimmer goes flat)

Alfred, i almost got a heart attack just READING that. i must say that i would never have the guts to actually do it. i am still building up the courage to use Flatworm eXit on my tank (as the flatworms i have a harmless, so i'm not sure it is worth the risk).

 

[alrha]

Glad to hear that it stopped! I'm curious- what equipment are you running on your system? (UV, Ozone?) What type of circulation do you have running?

No UV or Ozone. Just a Tunze Skimmer, and a Tunze Stream for circulation.
(i have a BlueLine70 return pump, but the flow is dialed down a lot as i only have one overflow box)

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

Several years ago, when everyone was getting hit by RTN, I witnessed it done on at least 3 systems. I get cold sweats just thinking about it. ;-)

As for the flatworms, have you tried a sixline wrasse?

-Alfred

 

[alrha]

Several years ago, when everyone was getting hit by RTN, I witnessed it done on at least 3 systems. I get cold sweats just thinking about it. ;-)

i can imagine

As for the flatworms, have you tried a sixline wrasse?

i have one. and a mandarin. but they are either reproducing faster than they can eat them, or they have enough food elsewhere to not be eating them [enough])

 

[jackson6745]

There is strong evidence to suggest that RTN/STN is caused by a gram negative bacteria (Vibrio sp.) Do a search on google for Bingman and RTN or vibrio. The whole argument between Borneman and Bingman- I STRONGLY side with Bingman. Chloramphenicol (CAM) stopped RTN where other antibiotics did not. (Other antibiotics that are somewhat stable in salt water also crashed the system, so it could not have been an ORP thing as was suggested)

The only sure fire way of stopping it is to use chloramphenicol (an antibiotic) but you need a MONSTER skimmer to clean up the water when the tank crashes. AND IT WILL CRASH! OR be ready to do a 100% water change as soon as the tank crashes. (The water will turn milky white and the skimmer goes flat) Or you can try to treat the corals in a QT with CAM. (You can only get CAM through a vet, it is not approved for Human use for good reason- some people in very rare instances can die from it.)

I went through the above, it was not pretty, but at the time I had my ETS-1000. I had to get the skimmer kick started by adding drops of clorox to the intake of the skimmer feed pump.

Basically, RTN/STN is a symptom of a "bigger" problem in your system 90% of the time. It is equivalent to a bad flu bug, in an open system the corals can recover and it does not spread as rapidly. In our closed systems the domino effect takes over very quickly.

-Alfred

Alfred you really need to stop reading Bingman and Borneman Why would you crash your tank to stop RTN? Perhaps you can use the antibiotic in a dip so only the coral is effected rather than the whole tank.

 

[jackson6745]

Thanks guys.
i too didnt think it would be the lighting.

The Mg is 1500, i havent dosed any in probably 6 months (at least) yet it stays there, which is strange. there must be some in either the "Reef Buffer" or "Reef Advantage Calcium" i dose.

Alk at 3.8meq/L is high? I always targeted an alk for 4.0 balanced with a Ca of 440.

and why would that cause STN (or RTN)?

would it eventually stop on its own and heal itself? or at my at risk of losing the entire colony? a frag of that baby just really wouldnt be much compared to that entire colony.

Albert check to see where the MG is coming from and stop adding it. If you're using a salifert MG testkit, 1500ppm is the highest reading and if there is no color change it could be VERY high.

12DKH is too high ALK to maintain.....RTN/STN has been linked to higher ALK (do a search on RC) You should lower the alk down to 10 DKH. Removing the cap from your tank and spreading supergule around the area of receding tissue will help stop the spread.

 

[prattreef]

Hi Alk. may be a problem, but as Jim said, any number of things might cause this to happen. From my experience, Red/Orange M. capricornis is quite sensitive to high light ( the exact opposite is true of M. confusa), and a combination of new MH and recent carbon change could just as likely be at fault here. Regarding carbon, light transmittance and associated stress on corals you would need to read Bingman... but apparently that is not a good idea Randy

 

[alrha]

Albert check to see where the MG is coming from and stop adding it. If you're using a salifert MG testkit, 1500ppm is the highest reading and if there is no color change it could be VERY high.

I use Salifert and Seachem kits. If you add more titrant to the syringe, you will eventually get the color change, then you can add your two readings to arrive at your total Mg.

12DKH is too high ALK to maintain.....RTN/STN has been linked to higher ALK (do a search on RC) You should lower the alk down to 10 DKH.

I was not aware of that.

Removing the cap from your tank and spreading supergule around the area of receding tissue will help stop the spread.

not possible. it is too big and attached to multiple rocks in the tank. however, as of this morning, it did look like it was stopping.