Don't Believe the HYPE! (skimmer discussion)

[fritz]

Hey Chris, as per your suggestion.

As you mentioned in the skimmer thread some brands of skimmers invoke a "ooh ahh, you are an advanced reefer" response. I think these are mostly the high priced skimmers. Like Jaguars back in the day. Jaguars were total POS cars in the 80s (still are) but owning one said "I can afford to have this car in the shop 3 days out of every week" Owning a "Ferrari" of skimmers invokes a certain "ooh ahh" window shopping response like reading the Rob Report.

You couldn't have put it better, there is so much more to a reef than an expensive skimmer. I really think the dollar for dollar is the best measure of a skimmer. Becketts and NW are too different to really compare. Many reefers can't run a beckett do to the need to keep everything on the same floor. To compare them isn't really fair.

 

[loismustdie]

 

[meschaefer]

The problem with comparing skimmers is that there is little in the way of objective data. People like to talk about LPM because it is one of the few hard numbers you can come by, yet I think that to a certain extent it is meaningless. I could run 20 LPM through a tube of water and get nothing out of it, or it could pull out the nasties, depending on contact time and bubble size.

When I bought my skimmer (DAS Ex-2), I looked at a lot of different types of skimmers. I choose a needle wheel for two reasons. 1.) I did not want the large pump needed to run them. Space is a premium underneath my tank (65 gallon), and the way things are laid out I would have needed to use a submersable pump and didn't want to have the added heat to the system. 2.) Noise levels. I am somewhat skeptical of this as my skimmer sucks alot of air and you can hear it. Most of the becketts I have seen have been in seperate rooms where I didn't really pay attention to the noise level.

 

[herman]

Skimmers and hype - way too much of it

I have a skimmer that has two Eheims connected to it. Its a needlewheel. I have no idea how much LPM it pulls nor do I care. The fact is that the skimmer works. On RC and anywhere else the hype right now is more LPM. Yeah if I wnted a geyser I could add a mesh wheel but I want a skimmer not a geyser.

An expensive skimmer or even the best skimmer does not make a good reefer. It just means that you have cash to burn.

Someone with real knowledge of the hobby can run a reef without a skimmer. Just pure husbandry alone will do it. Back in the day we did not have skimmers. A skimmer is just a tool to make maintenance a less time consuming thing.

(On a side note - I agree that you cant beat a beckett in terms of performance. I just got a needlewheel because of the noise factor)

 

[fritz]

You couldn't have put it better. I always say a skimmer is like automatic transmission, you don't need it but it sure makes it easier.

I also agree that LPM is not the be all end all. Contact time and bubble size, maybe even some other unknown play a huge role as well. As I mentioned running more air through my skimmer did not make it function better. There seems to be a "sweet spot" of skimming in terms of water to air ratio within a given space. Adding more air to my mixture reduced efficiency.

 

[herman]

Why would I want to increase LPM. As it is I have to restrict it so the damn thing dont overflow

 

[fritz]

This kind of reminds me of the old school logic on car engines. Bigger was better, more gas, more cylinders etc. Then the Hemispherical engine came out, then fuel injection, routing exhaust back into the engine etc. On the 10 year anniversary of the road and track TV show they had a stock Toyota Corolla dust the 6 cylinder Chevy Camaro from their very first broadcast to show how far engine technology has come.

 

[Kedd]

This is a bit off the topic, but as far as motors go, there is no substitute for cubic inches.

I guess this is somewhat the same as skimmer volume.

As far as horsepower goes you can have all the HP in the world, but without torque you don't have squat.

Same applies here, make all the bubbles in the world, but without contact time your not skimming squat.

Ok I couldn't help it.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[fritz]

Just to make my point about ratios:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA

Kedd, I'm with ya but my point was in the changes that have been made in regards to efficiency. My tiny 4 cyl kompressor engine will blow the doors off a larger engine. If you compare it to larger engines from say the early 80s, it's just a joke.

 

[cali_reef]

Skimmer are complex equipment, there are many variables to deal with. Raw power from becketts usually will compensate for design flaws, thats why they perform better, just like putting a bigger engine will most likely make any POS car go faster.

 

[Kedd]

Fritz, I too know what your saying, and yes the new smaller engines are getting crazy horsepower.
I didn't mean to hijack this skimmer thread, and get off topic.
Cars and reefs though, how good can it get. LOL

With all the Tech leaps and bounds, for both smaller motors all the way to big blocks it would be a great thread for the Nudibar.

:backtotop


Kedd

 

[fritz]

Well going back to topic:

Beckett has it's place but in my cabinet is not it.
Comparing the deltecs and the other NW skimmers dollar for dollar I think is a good measure. I buy Icecap products even though ARO is essentially the same ballast performance wise. I like the icecap support and maybe their branding has gotten to me. I buy deltec products because I can always get Doug on the phone. I use Dell laptops even though a Panasonic tough book is built better. I don't hit softballs with my laptop and I don't drop it down stairs. I also don't ever pull my skimmer out of the sump except to clean it. I don't need a skimmer that can take an attack with a baseball bat, just one that doesn't leak. Deltec's may not be able to withstand a gunshot but I don't plan on hiding behind it. It's built well enough for my needs. Is it overpriced, maybe nor more than an icecap ballast but I like that I can have a part overnighted from Germany if need be.

Side note:
Speaking of hype, I'm not sure that ripping all the Nog possible out of a tank is a good thing. Is anyone? Where's Solby?

 

[Hitsnorth]

Well I bought my Deltec and was disappointed. First it leaked in two places. I sent Doug an email only to have him want me to take a picture of it. Which I did. Weeks went by I havent heard a thing back from him. Thats been my experience with deltec.

Now as far as performance, I am really pleased with the Deltec. I had an MRC MR-2 with a Mag 24 previously and although I got more skimmate from it I am happy with the Deltec's performance. Especially since I no longer need a chiller to offset all the heat that MRC was introducing.

 

[boozeman]

hmm..has anyone built a big DIY skimmer with a car engine? :biggrin:

 

[Vic8361]

looking to buy a 426 Hemi for my next skimmer. LOL

 

[loismustdie]

hmm..has anyone built a big DIY skimmer with a car engine?

lol. You guys are losing me with the car talk.
Since I knew it was going to come up, as it did twice in the other thread... my Dialyseas. I spent 3 large on this thing and to my defense, I have never hyped it up. I never told anyone they had to have one. As a matter of fact, I strongly advise against it due to it's high cost. I never contribute any success with my tank directly to the Dialyseas. I give credit to the fact that I change 75 gallons of water per month (the Dialyseas just does it for me automatically). The Dialyseas provides me with stability and automation. You can achieve anything the Dialyseas does on your own. The Dialyseas is just automated.
Now, look through Deltec threads. You'll see comments like:
"Now that I got my Deltec, I don't have to clean my glass anymore"
"I got a Deltec and now my water tests perfect... the guy at the LFS said so"
"Since I got my Deltec, I don't change water"
I know it seems like I'm beating up Deltec here, but this is what I call hype. And the killer in all of it is none of these individuals ever post a pic showing this great success. People hype up Deltec and BK period. And now I believe the same thing is going on with the BM's. I'm not saying they aren't great skimmers. I just feel there is a bandwagon mentality and literally a status symbol for guys running overpriced skimmers. Hype.
Knock my Dialyseas all you want. I never said anyone needs one. I said it's nice to have.
As for the quality of skimmer builds, I'll agree, I don't feel that tey even need to be able to withstand a 5 foot drop. But for the money being spent, they could provide a better product. I shouldn't be able to build better stuff in my backyard.
I'm also going to stress that Fred, although a Deltec guy, doesn't hype up Deltec and still is very big on husbandry as opposed to thinking a skimmer can do it all for him.

 

[Wes]

i have a deltec but im definitely not one of those fanboys...During the research phase of getting into the hobby. I wanted to know i was buying quality equipment the first time around and didn't want to have to come back looking for something better.

Did i buy into the hype? I guess so but i had no experience w/ skimmers good or bad to form an opinion of my own.

Do i feel like I got ripped off? Not in the least, I can't see ever needing to upgrade skimmers until it's time to upgrade to a bigger tank.

I'm sure there are better buys out there but i wanted something quiet that's not going to crap out on me and Deltec seemed to be the way to go at the time according to all the "hype".

 

[fritz]

My deltec 100% outskimmed every other skimmer that saw that tank. It did so with a smaller footprint, MUCH less wattage and less noise. It was the most expensive but not by all that much. The comparable recirc ER would have been as much and the H&S wasn't too far off either. I didn't go ER because I don't like their pumps. I didn't go H&S because they are too tall to go in stand and if I'm putting a skimmer outside of my stand it's not going to be a NW. I ordered a DAS but it's build isn't as nice, there is no customer service and they can't ship.

If I had to do it again I'd buy a deltec, in fact I did. For the non-beckett applications I'll continue to use a deltec until another option comes around. It does what it needs to and then some. For those that brag about their lack of husbandry due to an expensive skimmer, owning a ferrari does not make you a race car driver. As Chris mentioned there is more to reefing than diesel powered skimmers.

Public Enemy is the jam.

 

[loismustdie]

Side note:
Speaking of hype, I'm not sure that ripping all the Nog possible out of a tank is a good thing. Is anyone? Where's Solby?

I skim dry as hell. Rich and Dave get mad when he sees how dry I go. I don't care. I have to clean the necks more often. No big deal. IMO/IME, my tank looks better when I skim dry.
Shaun is not a bigger skimmer guy. He goes after his tank biologically. This is a good case where guys stick to their strengths in husbandry. I will say I got some stuff from Shaun and his colors are awesome. I don't care if he uses a Sea-Clown.
Herman, FWIW, I see what you are saying about the other thread getting messy. Feel free to delete my posts. We can get our points across here.

 

[loismustdie]

Over all, I'm really not trying to beat any skimmers up, even though my bias is well out in the open. I think the issue here is the hype we give some products as possibly being the end all and be all of aquarium husbandry. We've all seen threads like that. I can't tell you all the products I see people talking up.
I also went Beckett because there was no hype, just proof. I was looking through all of my favorite tanks. For the record, on my top 10 favorite tanks, 3 members here are on that list (Rich, Kedd and Tony Acropora). As you guys know, I like to look for common denominators in things. And what I found out of my favorite 10 tanks, all 10 use becketts. I know they cost more to operate, but who cares, drop down to a lower wattage return pump.