Different people - different sugestions - please help

[arvean]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading this great source of info for a while now. I admit that amount of info is overwhelming but still remains a great source of knowledge.

I badly need an advice. To keep it short, I used to have 2 bettas, when then died last week after 2.5 years I thought it would be nice to get something nicer. I went to a new local store and was adviced to get a clownfish and some hermits to clean the tank. They sold me a 12L tank, around 6lbs of live rock & special sand and salt. I got filter , heater ,air pump - nothing fancy. I was told that I have to keep it running for a week to have the water establish, and I can come this Friday to buy fish.

Over the weekend I visited several stores and was told that :

a) my tank is to small even for this one poor clownfish,
b) there is no way to keep 12L saltwater tank - it's too small
c) I have to have this whole filtration system that is more sophisticated than my server.
d) Air pump will not help
e) even slight change in aquarium will kill the fish
f) I HAVE TO WAIT A MONTH TO PUT IN THE FISH!!!!!

I don't know if the seller put it all wrong just to score a sale, or other people just don't know what they are saying ( I spoke with two guys from Petco). Please debunk/confirm my thoughts....
Sincerely

Arvean

 

[crox99]

Welcome to MR. What are the dimensions of the tank? Is it 12 liters or a 12 long?

 

[arvean]

thanks for a replay CROX. My dims are: 17x11x7 inch. Please advice

 

[crox99]

That's only 5.5 gallons of wafer. IMO too small for a clownfish.

 

[scumonkey]

With saltwater: The smaller the tank the harder it is to maintain.
For someone just starting out I wouldn't go less than 20 gallons (50 is better)

 

[arvean]

and what about the rest of my points? a-f?

 

[scumonkey]

and what about the rest of my points? a-f?

A. Yes-too small
B. Not true -but only an advanced hobbyist should try.
C. Depends on what you ultimately decide to keep in your system.
D. Air pump won't hurt either.
E. Depends on what change is being made.
F. A marine tank has to "cycle" you can't safely put fish in until it does.
(that can take a month)

Nothing in this hobby happens fast except disaster!

 

[ellebelle]

Well, it does sound like you got some very bad advice.

A 5 gallon tank is too small for a clownfish ... in fact, I'd say that a 5 gallon tank is too small for most saltwater fish with few exceptions (maybe a yellow clown goby or other extreme nano fish might be okay). There's an excellent book by Scott Michael that tells you what the minimum aquarium size is for different kinds of fish. I think it gives the minimum aquarium size for clownfish as twenty gallons.

It is possible to keep a five gallon nanotank - in fact, there are people on this board who have done it. It can be more difficult than a larger tank because your water parameters aren't as stable. Even a little bit of evaporation will drastically change the salinity in a small tank, whereas with a larger tank you have a lot more room for error.

If you want to keep a tank without a skimmer (filtration system), it is possible but you have to be very on top of your water changes (read: ALL THE TIME). If you have a small enough tank, this isn't such a big deal, but the larger the tank the larger the water changes. A skimmer isn't so complicated though. You buy it, you attach a pump to it, and voila! filtration. There is an excellent thread called "The Skimmer Thread" which talks about different skimmers. It's probably one of the most expensive investments in this hobby for beginners.

There isn't anything wrong with an airpump, but you would need some kind of powerhead for some flow. At petco these are quite expensive, but you can get powerheads online for about twenty bucks. If you decide to stay in the hobby, you can even probably score one or two spare ones of some members while you're getting everything set up.

Slight changes in the aquarium will not kill fish. The fish are a lot hardier than people give them credit for. Slight changes in the aquarium are far more likely to kill corals and invertebrates. I had an accident over the summer where my salinity got WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY low and I didn't lose any coral or fish - I only lost my two peppermint shrimp.

And yes - if your rock is new and from Petco, you are probably looking at 4 weeks for the tank to cycle. You can do a search on this site or on google for more information about cycing a tank. If you got your rocks from a member's established tank, you could maybe cut this time down ....

but it's better safe than sorry.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do!

 

[cali_reef]

Even a little bit of evaporation will drastically change the salinity in a small tank, whereas with a larger tank you have a lot more room for error.

Evaporation rate is controlled by the amount of water surface area in contact with ambient air and the relative humidity level of the air.
Smaller tank will not have a larger rate of evaporation, unless that tank is very flat and have a larger ratio of water surface area vs. total water capacity. The top off water will be measure in ozs. vs. gallons in a large system but the salinity change will be similar, not greater.

I would not start this hobby with a tank smaller than a 20G, it is just too difficult to do and find equipment for.

 

[ellebelle]

Evaporation rate is controlled by the amount of water surface area in contact with ambient air and the relative humidity level of the air. Smaller tank will not have a larger rate of evaporation, unless that tank is very flat and have a larger ratio of water surface area vs. total water capacity. The top off water will be measure in ozs. vs. gallons in a large system but the salinity change will be similar, not greater.

Huh, I suppose that's true.

Everyone has always warned me off little tanks because of problems with salinity ... that shows me not to repeat something without research.

 

[Awibrandy]

Cali I am not disagreeing with you. You guys are quite technical, and I am absolute sure you know your stuff.

Lissa there is some truth to what you have said concerning the salinity changes in smaller tanks vs larger ones.
If there is evaporation in my 155 gallons or 120 the salinity does not go off as much as in my 20g. I was having a problem with my ATO for a little while on my large tanks, and my 20 does not have an ATO. I did experience that the salinity swing in my larger tank was barely noticeable, where as in the 20 the salinity went from 1.024 to 1.030 in 1 day. So you are correct in lay man's term with what you said. Did I make any sense at all? I know what I am trying to say, but not sure if I said it right. Any way it is a lot more difficult to maintain a smaller tank then a large one. Just my $.o2.
Please do not take advice from the petco people, the majority of the works know nothing. I went to Petco to purchase a water pump in a emergency, and the guy said "yes we have them follow me". He took me to the Aquaclear filters.lol When I told him those are not water pumps he told me, "Yes they are, you have no idea what you are looking for". Just one of my experience with them.

 

[cali_reef]

Cali I am not disagreeing with you. You guys are quite technical, and I am absolute sure you know your stuff.

Lissa there is some truth to what you have said concerning the salinity changes in smaller tanks vs larger ones.
If there is evaporation in my 155 gallons or 120 the salinity does not go off as much as in my 20g. I was having a problem with my ATO for a little while on my large tanks, and my 20 does not have an ATO. I did experience that the salinity swing in my larger tank was barely noticeable, where as in the 20 the salinity went from 1.024 to 1.030 in 1 day. So you are correct in lay man's term with what you said. Did I make any sense at all? I know what I am trying to say, but not sure if I said it right. Any way it is a lot more difficult to maintain a smaller tank then a large one. Just my $.o2.
Please do not take advice from the petco people, the majority of the works know nothing. I went to Petco to purchase a water pump in a emergency, and the guy said "yes we have them follow me". He took me to the Aquaclear filters.lol When I told him those are not water pumps he told me, "Yes they are, you have no idea what you are looking for". Just one of my experience with them.

For the Specific gravity to increase by .006 in a 20 gallon tank would mean a evaporation rate of 13% or 2.69 Gallons. Very unlikely to happen in one day unless you are baking the tank in an oven or have like 1,000 watts of lights above the tank with a LOT of water agitation at the surface.

Most likely you are not reading the refractometer correctly.

 

[Awibrandy]

Cali I read it correctly! I also thought that this was impossible until it happened again two days ago. I got caught up in other stuff like getting to the drs, and stuff and forgot to add the fresh water to it. And no I do not have 1000 watts on the tank, just 150.. I have no idea why this happens, the room is not that warm, and I even keep the ceiling fan going when the light comes on. The temp in the tank is stabel at 78. If you can figuere it out by all means shoot me a pm. I don't want to hijack this thread.

 

[cali_reef]

Did you have to add 2.6 gallons of water to lower the SG? and did the tank overflow from the new water you added? If not, then are you adding some kind the salt (Mg, Dow Flakes, other Ca additives?) during the same period for the density\SG to increase? Otherwise, you need to throw that refractometer in the garbage.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Welcome to MR.

Good luck!.

If you are looking for a smaller sized tank that is great to start off with you could try an aquapod 24 or a biocube 29.

 

[Awibrandy]

Did you have to add 2.6 gallons of water to lower the SG? and did the tank overflow from the new water you added? If not, then are you adding some kind the salt (Mg, Dow Flakes, other Ca additives?) during the same period for the density\SG to increase? Otherwise, you need to throw that refractometer in the garbage.

Yes 2.5 gallon bucket. No to all your other questions. And the refractometer is working fine on all the other tanks. Please for the sake of this thread pm me with any other question, or suggestion.:hug:

 

[ming]

Yes 2.5 gallon bucket. No to all your other questions. And the refractometer is working fine on all the other tanks. Please for the sake of this thread pm me with any other question, or suggestion.:hug:

I think that answered Cali's question. The refractometer is fine, just that you're evaporating more proportionally in the 20g tank. 2.6g in a 20g tank is 13%, and you would need to evaporate 20.15g in the 155 to have the same effect.
The simple answer is you're evaporating at a faster percentage in the 20g tank.
Why? Answer would be a combination of surface area to water volume ratio, surface agitation, wind blowing over the water possibly, heat, etc.

I think this discussion is relevant to this thread though..

 

[Awibrandy]

I think that answered Cali's question. The refractometer is fine, just that you're evaporating more proportionally in the 20g tank. 2.6g in a 20g tank is 13%, and you would need to evaporate 20.15g in the 155 to have the same effect.
The simple answer is you're evaporating at a faster percentage in the 20g tank.
Why? Answer would be a combination of surface area to water volume ratio, surface agitation, wind blowing over the water possibly, heat, etc.

I think this discussion is relevant to this thread though..

Thank you Ming!!

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

For beginners, keeping small tank could be difficult because temperature fluctuation is swift due to surface(tank not just water) area ratio to volume of the water body. Especially, there is also a tendency that hobbyists like to add the biggest skimmer they can get, the strongest light they can get which generate way too much heat than should have been. I have seen someone putting a 400W on a 19G-24G. So stay away from small tanks unless you have a cool termperature controlled room.

As for salinity issue, we also have a tendency to read(visually) by just how many inches of water have gone instead of using apparatus to test the water. Half an inch gone in a 2.5G has a very different impact from half an inch(even an inch) gone in a 150G.

 

[tosiek]

I'm curious what store sold you the stuff and told u a week before u can add fish. :letitallo

I disagree with people and the fact that poeple say small tanks are too hard. You can keep a 5g rock anemone and zoa tank and avoid all maintenance to it besides topping off and have everything look great for about a month. Small tanks are not hard param wise besides P04 from too much waste in tank from overstocking. 5g of water is not much even for a small goby and some zoa's to pollute quick, which leads to a second cycle and stuff from overpopulation of bacteria without proper waste removal which causes peoples tanks to crash, which leads to people not thinking a tank can cycle 2-4 times in a small waste heavy tank and blame it on their params because the cycle is over by the time they check for ammo and stuff. Also the people that used to say params went crazy in small tanks never used any good addatives (clacium cubes or just salt water changes) to renew essensial nutrients and also never had any filtration of any type besides flow and some carbon (maybe) or bio balls which added to problems.

I have not seen a post anywhere lately with the new nano skimmers and different ways of filtrating a tank stating that nano tanks are hard to keep because of salinity and param fluctuations. But yeah, i wouldn't recommend it to a person just starting out because you have to really understand it to make it work the right way.

I miss my nano.