How many fish does the hobby kill in PI per year?

[Kalkbreath]

How many fish are on the reefs of the Philippines? And how many fish does this hobby remove each year? You would think that we as a hobby would have some idea ......But we dont . Lets first do some quick math .....Some people have made the suggestion that about 500 fish per square kilometer is what the standing stock of fish currently is in PI.........could this somehow be correct? Well if we use that number lets sea where it gets us. There is an estimate of 3,000,000 {three million fish } being landed in America each year from PI. So 3 million is the minimum removed for our hobby . But wait, not all the fish collected survive to be exported. Peter, a very respected scientist and many other big names in the field have suggested that upwards of 80 million fish need to be collected to export the 3 million ! being that so many fish die at collection and during the many stages before export. Very well, lets use those numbers as well..................80 million fish collected from 25,000 square kilometers is more then 3,000 fish per square kilometer per year. ! Thats almost 100 fish per day per kilo2! But if we also look at how many standing stock fish it would require to be able to collect 100 fish per day over a twelve month period .....this would require at least 3000 fish per kilo2 each year.......or 100x350 days = 3500.........Now because many of the fish shipped to USA are two or three year old fish ..... some fish must escape of collectors and remain on the reefs to grow and be collected the following years. Lets say at least one-third more additional fish then the amount removed . So, 4000 hobby fish would need to be swimming around and we emove 3000 of the 4000 in each square kilometer for Peters scenario to hold water. Thats quite a bit MORE then the 500 fish estimates given by Peter. But lets use the minimum number 120 fish ......lets assume that every fish makes it through collection NO fish die during collection and every fish collected ends up in a pet store .......So, 120 fish plus the one third extra needed to have fish the next year......equals 160 hobby fish per kilometer square .......But wait , hobby fish only make up a tiny fraction of the total species on the reefs.......When we look at the number of damsels , there are at least 30 common varieties of damsels in PI and our hobby only collects five types of damsels in great numbers....and these damsel fish make up about thirty percent of the 3 million fish collected. Thats 50 damsels from each kilometer square each year. Well if there are 30 other types of damsels and those fish are in the same number as our targeted varieties .....that would mean there are at least 1500 damsels per kilo2 swimming around with the varieties we do collect. And it would reason that those varieties we dont collect are in greater abundance! So now we are at several thousand fish per kilometer JUST taking into account our hobby fish and other damsels. next we could talk about ugly blennies that we dont collect many of or Brown tangs or grunts etc.! There are about 200 very common to abundant species of fish in the waters of PI.and another 1500 total other species..So just to begin to represent the number of non hobby fish that our hoby does not target would place the fish count in the tens of thousands !!! What is the current standing stock of fish in the Philippines? Im not sure , but the idea that it is any where around five hundered or even 2000 ....is silly and the idea that we kill 80 million to to export 3 million is equaly silly........OR THERE ARE ONE HELL OF A LOT OF FISH LEFT IN THE PHILIPPINES! 80 million hobby fish or 3000 per kilometer would translate into at minimum......30, 000 fish per kilometer square for all species total ......The TRUTH lies some where in the middle! :wink:.......

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I told you to start with the densities listed on the PSD website, but you refused. Small wonder why you can't make your calculations fit your theories.

Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

What in the above paragraph is untrue? Finding one area in PI that has unusually low fish levels and adopting that area as the poster child for reeform is all too easy.....What is the average fish count in PI ? and how many fish does this hobby remove? These are your fish counts , not mine ......I say our hobby removes five million fish to export three million. The average fish density or standing fish stocks in PI must be at least several thousand strong per square kilometer. What sayith you?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Having said that , what is the website you are following with a blind eye? I will be glad to have a loooksy...?But unlike some , I have on my bs proof eyeware........so I shall be able to see through the spinning fecal matter. :wink:

 

[Ad van Tage]

Kalk, I told you to start with the densities listed on the PSD website, but you refused. Small wonder why you can't make your calculations fit your theories.

Peter

I could not find PSD in the archives / old threads ; however was able, thanx to Peter's reply, to spot the former thread:


From the old thread "Post subject: biodiversity and the hobby" I retrieved:

Kalk, It is not impossible. You forgot that the densities in the zones vary. They are higher than 500 fish per square kiliometer in the fair, good, and excellent categories. I asked you to start with the numbers posted on the PCSD site (some of which I posted about a week ago). Then, carry out the extrapolations.

You stated that 80 million aquarium fish are killed so that 3 million can be exported. That is your extrapolation. If you are right, there is no reason to have an aquarium fish export trade from the Philippines (or anywhere cyanide fishing is practiced).

Peter rubec

I understand PCSD to stand for PALAWAN Council for Sustainable Development , or something close to that.


It would appear that the URL is http://www.pcsd.ph/Study%20and%20findin ... ssment.htm

as originally posted by Kalkbreath himself. on the thread "What would happen...."

 

[Kalkbreath]

Peter , is PSD the same as PCSD? Can you explain , what is ment by target ind/Ha .......what is Ha......is that a hector? How many hector in a square kilometer? Thanks

 

[Kalkbreath]

Oh and thanks ......ad van tage...... But I did not notice until now , that the sea grass beds are in such bad shape? Surely that cant be from cyanide.....or over collection of fish . ?

 

[mkirda]

But I did not notice until now , that the sea grass beds are in such bad shape? Surely that cant be from cyanide.....or over collection of fish . ?

Why would you assume that?

I can't put my fingers on the more in-depth story, but here the same incident is referred to:
http://www.pto-princesa.com/paltimes/1405/story1.htm
" Zulueta claimed that the illegal fishers are operating near Pandan Island, near a seaweed farm of the Barangay Tagburos Multi-Purpose Cooperative. The cooperative allegedly lost P300,000 because sodium cyanide has affected seaweeds farming extensively.."

Cyanide affects seaweed too, and fishing of all sorts *does* take place in seagrass beds.

I'm not arguing that *ALL* seagrass bed habitat destruction is from these two sources, but that either one or both can have an effect, and in localized areas, the effect can be pretty dramatic.

I think I went right past this co-op on my first trip to Palawan.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Ad van Tage]

Duplicate post... :roll:

 

[Kalkbreath]

But I did not notice until now , that the sea grass beds are in such bad shape? Surely that cant be from cyanide.....or over collection of fish . ?

Why would you assume that?

I can't put my fingers on the more in-depth story, but here the same incident is referred to:
http://www.pto-princesa.com/paltimes/1405/story1.htm
" Zulueta claimed that the illegal fishers are operating near Pandan Island, near a seaweed farm of the Barangay Tagburos Multi-Purpose Cooperative. The cooperative allegedly lost P300,000 because sodium cyanide has affected seaweeds farming extensively.."

Cyanide affects seaweed too, and fishing of all sorts *does* take place in seagrass beds.

I'm not arguing that *ALL* seagrass bed habitat destruction is from these two sources, but that either one or both can have an effect, and in localized areas, the effect can be pretty dramatic.

I think I went right past this co-op on my first trip to Palawan.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Okey, the big question is ..........how does cyanide food fishing effect seaweed farming ? I have seen the typical farm set up with the ropes and such.........its like a farm in the shallow water......the fishermen cant be fishing within these farms? Can they ......They would be caught ....by people thinking they are stealing their crops!....the damage has to be from water that has flowed in from the nearby reefs or grass beds {fishing grounds } If the cyanide levels the fishermen are using are great enough to kill the seaweed in the seaweed farms ....which are 100 yards away at least.......how strong is the level of cyanide withing the fishing grounds? AGAIN proof that seafood collectors are the ones killing the coral with cyanide .......the levels hobby collectors use is tiny enough to not kill the fish out right......let alone the coral or sea weed farms :wink:

 

[Ad van Tage]

Peter , is PSD the same as PCSD? Can you explain , what is ment by target ind/Ha .......what is Ha......is that a hector? How many hector in a square kilometer? Thanks

Kalkbreath, as you first posted that URL you must have known that Peter ment "PCSD".

Now why are you having a problem figuring out what Ind/Ha stands for ? Can you not read, or are you simply too lazy to do it adequately?
Given that you like to quote or rather throw around fish-densities, what is with that?

How about "individuals per hectare" It's right there above the section on seagrass which seems to have intrigued you so!

Groupers are generally higher in density ( that is number of individual per hectares)

Surely they must have at least one dictionary in your neck of the woods, so that you too can look up "hectare". Of course it helps when you spell it correctly in the first place.

Now if you are not too lazy to do some homework yourself, look under ACRE on http://www.geocities.com/jayatea.geo/dictA.html

Hint: HECT stands for 100 as in 10x10 ...; so a hectare is 100 ares. PLEASE don't ask what an "are" is. LOOK IT UP! ( Guess where! )
Yes km2 or square km fits there too! And NO, it never is kilo2!

You do know how long 1 km is, I trust!

Again given that you like to throw around fish-densities it would serve you well to understand metric measures for area(1). As fish-density is expressed in "number of fish per area".

Good luck on your Metric-101. When you are done, do come back and tell us the answer to "How many hectares in one square kilometer?"(1)


(1) So much easier than dealing in hacienda or worse luck arshin!

Oh and one final note: "target" are of course the fish that being actively fished for. [ Read the total text, at the URL! ]

 

[mkirda]

But I did not notice until now , that the sea grass beds are in such bad shape? Surely that cant be from cyanide.....or over collection of fish . ?

Why would you assume that?

I can't put my fingers on the more in-depth story, but here the same incident is referred to:
http://www.pto-princesa.com/paltimes/1405/story1.htm
" Zulueta claimed that the illegal fishers are operating near Pandan Island, near a seaweed farm of the Barangay Tagburos Multi-Purpose Cooperative. The cooperative allegedly lost P300,000 because sodium cyanide has affected seaweeds farming extensively.."

Cyanide affects seaweed too, and fishing of all sorts *does* take place in seagrass beds.

I'm not arguing that *ALL* seagrass bed habitat destruction is from these two sources, but that either one or both can have an effect, and in localized areas, the effect can be pretty dramatic.

I think I went right past this co-op on my first trip to Palawan.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Okey, the big question is ..........how does cyanide food fishing effect seaweed farming ? I have seen the typical farm set up with the ropes and such.........its like a farm in the shallow water......the fishermen cant be fishing within these farms? Can they ......They would be caught ....by people thinking they are stealing their crops!....the damage has to be from water that has flowed in from the nearby reefs or grass beds {fishing grounds } If the cyanide levels the fishermen are using are great enough to kill the seaweed in the seaweed farms ....which are 100 yards away at least.......how strong is the level of cyanide withing the fishing grounds? AGAIN proof that seafood collectors are the ones killing the coral with cyanide .......the levels hobby collectors use is tiny enough to not kill the fish out right......let alone the coral or sea weed farms :wink:

Cyanide fishing of all kinds, not just food fishing...
How does it affect? Did you read the part I quoted? And that you quoted? The answer is right there. I expect to have to read out loud and explain things for my niece, but she is six, fer chrissakes. They lost a bunch of money, meaning it couldn't be sold, right?
IOW, it means that all the seaweed died from the illegal cyanide use.

Your assumption about where fishermen were illegally fishing...
Not within the farm... It is not clear from this article that the fishermen were within the farm, or up-current. I don't see how you can make the assumption that it isn't MO fisherman within the farm. Fishermen that collect fish that eat the seaweed might be view as beneficial by the farmer. At least until they start using cyanide and start killing off the seaweed...

And your final claim- that the levels of cyanide used are 'tiny'...
Define 'tiny', then show us backup for your claim that these levels have no effect on corals or seaweed.

You make the claim... Back it up.

Have fun at the library, Kalk.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Peter , is PSD the same as PCSD? Can you explain , what is ment by target ind/Ha .......what is Ha......is that a hector? How many hector in a square kilometer? Thanks

Kalkbreath, as you first posted that URL you must have known that Peter ment "PCSD".

Now why are you having a problem figuring out what Ind/Ha stands for ? Can you not read, or are you simply too lazy to do it adequately?
Given that you like to quote or rather throw around fish-densities, what is with that?

How about "individuals per hectare" It's right there above the section on seagrass which seems to have intrigued you so!

Groupers are generally higher in density ( that is number of individual per hectares)

Surely they must have at least one dictionary in your neck of the woods, so that you too can look up "hectare". Of course it helps when you spell it correctly in the first place.

Now if you are not too lazy to do some homework yourself, look under ACRE on http://www.geocities.com/jayatea.geo/dictA.html

Hint: HECT stands for 100 as in 10x10 ...; so a hectare is 100 ares. PLEASE don't ask what an "are" is. LOOK IT UP! ( Guess where! )
Yes km2 or square km fits there too! And NO, it never is kilo2!

You do know how long 1 km is, I trust!

Again given that you like to throw around fish-densities it would serve you well to understand metric measures for area(1). As fish-density is expressed in "number of fish per area".

Good luck on your Metric-101. When you are done, do come back and tell us the answer to "How many hectares in one square kilometer?"(1)


(1) So much easier than dealing in hacienda or worse luck arshin!

Oh and one final note: "target" are of course the fish that being actively fished for. [ Read the total text, at the URL! ]

Once again .....stop resorting to correcting spelling errors and debate the data.....

 

[Kalkbreath]

But I did not notice until now , that the sea grass beds are in such bad shape? Surely that cant be from cyanide.....or over collection of fish . ?

Why would you assume that?

I can't put my fingers on the more in-depth story, but here the same incident is referred to:
http://www.pto-princesa.com/paltimes/1405/story1.htm
" Zulueta claimed that the illegal fishers are operating near Pandan Island, near a seaweed farm of the Barangay Tagburos Multi-Purpose Cooperative. The cooperative allegedly lost P300,000 because sodium cyanide has affected seaweeds farming extensively.."

Cyanide affects seaweed too, and fishing of all sorts *does* take place in seagrass beds.

I'm not arguing that *ALL* seagrass bed habitat destruction is from these two sources, but that either one or both can have an effect, and in localized areas, the effect can be pretty dramatic.

I think I went right past this co-op on my first trip to Palawan.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Okey, the big question is ..........how does cyanide food fishing effect seaweed farming ? I have seen the typical farm set up with the ropes and such.........its like a farm in the shallow water......the fishermen cant be fishing within these farms? Can they ......They would be caught ....by people thinking they are stealing their crops!....the damage has to be from water that has flowed in from the nearby reefs or grass beds {fishing grounds } If the cyanide levels the fishermen are using are great enough to kill the seaweed in the seaweed farms ....which are 100 yards away at least.......how strong is the level of cyanide withing the fishing grounds? AGAIN proof that seafood collectors are the ones killing the coral with cyanide .......the levels hobby collectors use is tiny enough to not kill the fish out right......let alone the coral or sea weed farms :wink:

Cyanide fishing of all kinds, not just food fishing...
How does it affect? Did you read the part I quoted? And that you quoted? The answer is right there. I expect to have to read out loud and explain things for my niece, but she is six, fer chrissakes. They lost a bunch of money, meaning it couldn't be sold, right?
IOW, it means that all the seaweed died from the illegal cyanide use.

Your assumption about where fishermen were illegally fishing...
Not within the farm... It is not clear from this article that the fishermen were within the farm, or up-current. I don't see how you can make the assumption that it isn't MO fisherman within the farm. Fishermen that collect fish that eat the seaweed might be view as beneficial by the farmer. At least until they start using cyanide and start killing off the seaweed...

And your final claim- that the levels of cyanide used are 'tiny'...
Define 'tiny', then show us backup for your claim that these levels have no effect on corals or seaweed.

You make the claim... Back it up.

Have fun at the library, Kalk.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

These are food fishermen! I agree that food fishermen are trashing the reefs with massive concentrations of cyanide! Hobby collectors cannot collect blue tangs with high doses....it kills the fish outright......

 

[mkirda]

These are food fishermen! I agree that food fishermen are trashing the reefs with massive concentrations of cyanide!

Really?

PROVE IT!

Hobby collectors cannot collect blue tangs with high doses....it kills the fish outright......

Really?

What doses do MO collectors use versus food fish collectors?
Prove to me that this is true.

You are making claims- Prove them.
Show me the facts.

First you claim that cyanide can't hurt seaweed, then you blame the damage on use by 'someone else'. You can't have it both ways, Kalk. It either harms seaweed or it doesn't. You made a claim, I offered proof that you were wrong. Blaming it on food fishermen is intellectually dishonest.

Instead of offering proof or facts, you repeat yourself or blame others.
Can't you offer one shred of proof for your claims?

We are all waiting.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

It really quite simple........Small doses of a sedative {like cyanide} put a fish to sleep ..............huge doses of the same sedative will kill ......As testified under oath in a courtroom in the 1980s by Steve Robinson ......

.."Cyanide is used exclusively by the food fish industry."[.end quote]......If cyanide fishermen are effecting Algae farms hundreds of meters from the fishing grounds , then those fishermen are using cyanide levels that are way beyond what tiny reef fish like those collected for our hobby can survive exposer to........{Mental note}Our collectors export live fish

 

[mkirda]

It really quite simple........Small doses of a sedative {like cyanide} put a fish to sleep ..............huge doses of the same sedative will kill ......As testified under oath in a courtroom in the 1980s by Steve Robinson ......

.."Cyanide is used exclusively by the food fish industry."

......If cyanide fishermen are effecting Algae farms hundreds of meters from the fishing grounds , then those fishermen are using cyanide levels that are way beyond what tiny reef fish like those collected for our hobby can survive exposer to........{Mental note}Our collectors export live fish

Kalk,

Try actually giving us proof rather than repeating yourself.
There is not a single number here, nor a source, nor a citation.
This is again worse than useless.

 

[clarionreef]

Under oath in a courtroom? Cool!
What was the case all about and what else did I say Kalk?
Steve
PS I called cyanide a sedative? Doesn't sound like me. I must've been mellower back then...

 

[Kalkbreath]

Under oath in a courtroom? Cool!
What was the case all about and what else did I say Kalk?
Steve
PS I called cyanide a sedative? Doesn't sound like me. I must've been mellower back then...

Thats not what Peter quoted in his book ..........I dont have the link hre at the store ..I wiil post again later

 

[Kalkbreath]

It really quite simple........Small doses of a sedative {like cyanide} put a fish to sleep ..............huge doses of the same sedative will kill ......As testified under oath in a courtroom in the 1980s by Steve Robinson ......

.."Cyanide is used exclusively by the food fish industry."

......If cyanide fishermen are effecting Algae farms hundreds of meters from the fishing grounds , then those fishermen are using cyanide levels that are way beyond what tiny reef fish like those collected for our hobby can survive exposer to........{Mental note}Our collectors export live fish

Kalk,

Try actually giving us proof rather than repeating yourself.
There is not a single number here, nor a source, nor a citation.
This is again worse than useless.

The artical said that a boat full chinese fishermen were caught collecting with cyanide in the waters of PI........the algae farms in the area were effected by the intense levels of cyanide in the water..........WHAT do you really think these were pet fish collectors?