The benefits of MAC certification

[MaryHM]

I want someone to tell me why it would be in the best interest of any business to call MAC today and start on the road to certification. I'm curious as to the MAC supporter's ideas on this.

 

[Anonymous]

<------- Not necessarily a MAC supporter.


A better quality to product to sell. Better looking healthier fish. Happier customers.

Best case scenario of course.

 

[MaryHM]

I don't want best case scenarios. I want responses based on what MAC can do for a business RIGHT NOW if I call in today in response to one of their ads and I want to become MAC certified. They are advertising, trying to increase the number of certified dealers. I want to know what they can offer right now that would make certification seem like a "must" for my business.

 

[JennM]

<------- Not necessarily a MAC supporter.


A better quality to product to sell. Better looking healthier fish. Happier customers.

Best case scenario of course.

<<<<----Devil's advocate (or maybe just a truth-seeker)...

You are "assuming" that MAC is offering a better product based on all their strict criteria, and claims of net-caught, properly handled fish.

Today, nobody can guarantee those claims, any more than any other member of the chain of custody.

You and I both know we can get that with careful supply choices, no certification required.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

I want someone to tell me why it would be in the best interest of any business to call MAC today and start on the road to certification. I'm curious as to the MAC supporter's ideas on this.

Mary obviously you haven't seen the Dealer Cost/Benefit Study that was posted on the MASNA site. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I don't want best case scenarios. I want responses based on what MAC can do for a business RIGHT NOW if I call in today in response to one of their ads and I want to become MAC certified.

Then you should have worded the question differently. The answer to your new question is: Nothing.

Then the real question is : "Is the potential benefit that MAC might offer my company worth the initial investment? And like any other investment it may pay off or you may have just flushed it all down the drain. To me, that decision can't be answered until they have fish.

Regardless of whether or not MAC ever actually produces a product to market, I have heard from several stores that are MAC certified, that the process of becoming certified (the record keeping) made their stores better from the beginning.

You are "assuming" that MAC is offering a better product based on all their strict criteria, and claims of net-caught, properly handled fish.

Today, nobody can guarantee those claims, any more than any other member of the chain of custody.

You and I both know we can get that with careful supply choices, no certification required.

I'm assuming that MAC will do everything they claim (hence the best case scenario disclaimer).

And you are right, nobody can make those claims and back them up currently. Which is why the proof (for me at least) while be in the fish, when and if they ever have any. A MAC certified distributor will be critiqued the same way we have always done. It's ludicrous to think that the vast majority of retailers are going to stop paying attention to the quality of their product, just because they come in boxes with stickers on them. If the quality is better than what I can already get, I would probably look into becoming certified myself so that I could then sell certified animals to my customers. But not until I have actually seen the fish myself firsthand.

And yes, you can currently do the same thing through careful supply choices. However, you can't tell me that improving all supply shouldn't be our ultimate goal. We both know that the entire industry can't survive on what the few "green guys" are offering. In order for the hobby/industry to improve we have to improve all of the supply. The attitude of "as long as I know my fish are healthy" has got to end. Keeping a secret stash of clean fish and hoping that our competition is selling dirty fish isn't helping anyone. This industry should rely on knowledge and customer service, not secrets.

(speaking in gigantically broad terms here, so nothing personal was directed toward any person, organization, or company.)

 

[dizzy]

Regardless of whether or not MAC ever actually produces a product to market, I have heard from several stores that are MAC certified, that the process of becoming certified (the record keeping) made their stores better from the beginning.

Glenn,
How many is several? I'm also not sure what you mean by made their stores better. Would you please elaborate. What type of record keeping makes a store better? Wouldn't it depend on your current state of affairs? I tried to ask Mark SS and Rick P that question via the AMDA forum but didn't really get a straight answer. Obviously you have so please explain it to us. I also asked John for an explanation or template of the Dealer Cost/Benefit study and we are still waiting for him to get back on that.

Ok say you become MAC certified and get listed on their web site. A customer calls and asks you what MAC certified fish you have for sale. You explain that you don't have any, but expect some cleaner wrasses and copper band butterflies before long. The customer sighs and seems disappointed, so you quickly add: "But I do have some good news. My record keeping is much better now." CLICK

 

[JennM]

Well competitive edge will apply, no matter who is or isn't certifying fish or other organisms. Even if everybody was "certified" (guffaw!), there would be better suppliers than others, no matter what. We see that today. Clearly those that stay in business have to be doing *something* right or they don't survive, period. There will always be better dealers than others, even when dealing with the same sources of fish. Handling and packing methods can make a big difference too, in the amount of animals that make it alive through the chain of custody.

And about surviving with "just the green guys"... I'm doing it. In fact I'm expanding my store (to include freshwater...). I'm adding to my inventory, and a different group of organisms, but I'm doing well enough to be able to expand, on "just the green guys". I don't order from the "other guys" at all. If everybody did it, then the industry would have no choice but to reform, because nobody would buy their stuff, period. It's not a matter of picking and choosing the "clean" fish from whomever, it's a matter of picking wholesaler(s) that put their own money where their mouth is. In fact, I'm trying to find a FW wholesaler that doesn't deal in SW, because thusfar the ones I've seen, even though their FW stuff is nice, I'm not comfortable with their SW departments. Support one, support another. It's not easy to always *try* to do the right thing, but it all depends how strong one's motivations are.

No I can't guarantee beyond a reasonable doubt that everything is 100% clean, but neither can anybody. The people I deal with make every effort to only buy net caught fishes. The quality and longevity of the animals I receive tells me that the odds are in my favour that they are what I believe they are.

Back to the topic at hand, I guess I'm not holding my breath that the MAC even intends to fulfill their promises. We've seen the timelines, broken promises and incomplete procedures for long enough that, while I believe that the notions were good ones, for the most part, I don't believe that they will ever be fully implemented, given the current state of affairs, and their past record. I'd like to be proven wrong on this, but until we see some serious changes, I'm not holding my breath.

I just hope others take a good hard look BEFORE they put up the money to be certified.

 

[Anonymous]

How many is several?

Two.

I'm also not sure what you mean by made their stores better. Would you please elaborate. What type of record keeping makes a store better? Wouldn't it depend on your current state of affairs? I tried to ask Mark SS and Rick P that question via the AMDA forum but didn't really get a straight answer.

Yes, it does depend on your state of affairs. I wasn't offering it up as a concrete benefit, just a possibility.

Ok say you become MAC certified and get listed on their web site. A customer calls and asks you what MAC certified fish you have for sale. You explain that you don't have any, but expect some cleaner wrasses and copper band butterflies before long. The customer sighs and seems disappointed, so you quickly add: "But I do have some good news. My record keeping is much better now."

Every situation is going to be different. Suppose a really crappy, inexperienced store spends the dough to get MAC certified (for whatever reason, just bear with me), but never recieves any fish from MAC cause their just aren't any. Even if they don't have the fish to sell they may still be in a better situation now because of the standards of practice they put into place in order to become certified, that the money spent might have been woth it in the long run. As I understand it, the money spent on certification goes on in house (ie updated equipment, computerization. book keeping, etc), so even with no fish, there would still be a tangible improvement in the store. (And yes I know you could do this without MAC, but chances are if this store new how to do it, they would have done it already.)

But like I've said before, until MAC gets fish, I don't think it's prudent to make a decision about them either way.

Even if everybody was "certified" (guffaw!), there would be better suppliers than others, no matter what. We see that today. Clearly those that stay in business have to be doing *something* right or they don't survive, period. There will always be better dealers than others, even when dealing with the same sources of fish. Handling and packing methods can make a big difference too, in the amount of animals that make it alive through the chain of custody.

Exactly. Which is why the industry needs to get away from "who got clean fish" and towards, "who handles the fish better, who has the best sales reps, who is the best at treating diseases, who packs their boxes the best?" etc. The idea is to get rid of all the dirty fish for everyone so that a dirty fish is never sold in the first place.

And about surviving with "just the green guys"... I'm doing it. In fact I'm expanding my store (to include freshwater...). I'm adding to my inventory, and a different group of organisms, but I'm doing well enough to be able to expand, on "just the green guys". I don't order from the "other guys" at all. If everybody did it, then the industry would have no choice but to reform, because nobody would buy their stuff, period.

As do I. However my point was, that those few can't support everyone. Let's suppose your favorite wholesaler suddenly quadrupled their business. Would they have enough fish to go around week after week? Of course not. So the ultimate goal has got to be bringing the quality of the fish that are being imported into this country across the board.

Back to the topic at hand, I guess I'm not holding my breath that the MAC even intends to fulfill their promises. We've seen the timelines, broken promises and incomplete procedures for long enough that, while I believe that the notions were good ones, for the most part, I don't believe that they will ever be fully implemented, given the current state of affairs, and their past record.

How long did you expect it to take? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? I just don't think it's been long enough to really tell. The downside for MAC is that they have to make all of their mistakes in public and under intense scrutiny. Which is how it should be, but I expect them to make mistakes, and I think it's somewhat unfair for everyone to hit the ceiling everytime they don't do something exactly the way *they* thought they should. They don't have the luxury of working out all of the bugs on a smaller local scale and then growing the way a business would. They are going to have to start out on the top, dealing representatives from a whole bunch of different interests. This is a huge problem, it's going to take a huge effort to fix, and it ain't gonna be quick. [/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

what's to stop a store from paying for the certification, and then, when no 'real' mac fish are available...

start to sell other sources fish as the 'certified' ones?

the sticker's there, already, ain't it?

 

[Anonymous]

what's to stop a store from paying for the certification, and then, when no 'real' mac fish are available...

start to sell other sources fish as the 'certified' ones?

the sticker's there, already, ain't it?

That is a major loophole that I have yet to see addressed. And it is one that I would expect would have to be resolved before they could convince too many other stores to become certified.

 

[Anonymous]

but they can't address it, don't you see?

it's a catch 22 they let themselves into

 

[Anonymous]

but they can't address it, don't you see?

it's a catch 22 they let themselves into

I agree. Which is why I don't think we should be rushing to judgements before the thing is even off the drawing board.

 

[dizzy]

. Even if they don't have the fish to sell they may still be in a better situation now because of the standards of practice they put into place in order to become certified, that the money spent might have been woth it in the long run. As I understand it, the money spent on certification goes on in house (ie updated equipment, computerization. book keeping, etc), so even with no fish, there would still be a tangible improvement in the store. (And yes I know you could do this without MAC, but chances are if this store new how to do it, they would have done it already.)

Glenn,
I see one major, serious flaw with your logic. MAC doesn't tell you how or what to do. You write your own script and they come in and make sure you are doing it like you said you would. If you don't know how to do it on your own then you are SOL with MAC. At least that is the way I understand it.

 

[Anonymous]

I see one major, serious flaw with your logic. MAC doesn't tell you how or what to do. You write your own script and they come in and make sure you are doing it like you said you would. If you don't know how to do it on your own then you are SOL with MAC. At least that is the way I understand it.

Hmmm. That is a flaw. There aren't guidelines or suggestions templates or anything?

 

[dizzy]

Not that I'm aware of. It's a bit like the CAMPs situation I believe.
Mitch

 

[jamesw]

When my company got ISO certified we hired a fellow to come in and work with our company's quality assurance people. The guy gets paid pretty well to basically do "Audit training" IE help the company get the paperwork ready, help organize everything, and coach people on how best to answer the auditors' questions.

The idea behind certification is to show the agency that you have a plan to do you work, and you follow the plan. You have to SHOW them you have the procedures (and facility) in place to follow the plan.

Cheers
James

 

[MaryHM]

The idea behind certification is to show the agency that you have a plan to do you work, and you follow the plan. You have to SHOW them you have the procedures (and facility) in place to follow the plan.

Congratulations, James! You're right! Glenn, MAC does not have any real standards that you have to live up to. There are no standards for water parameters, minimal equipment, etc... All you have to do is have everything you currently do in writing. You have to have logs that show where you check water parameters, but there are no minimum standards those parameters have to meet. Everything is a huge paperwork game. Maybe the stores you talked to benefited because now they have everything they do in writing and maybe that has helped them. But as far as keeping their animals healthy, MAC doesn't have a single requirement concerning this. Heck, you could be killing every single animal you receive within 3 days and as long as you logged everything you could still be MAC certified. When you have a spare 10 hours and a bottle of aspirin, you should go read the "standards". They're on the MAC website.

 

[Anonymous]

But going through the process is still beneficial. Kind of like writing a business plan, no one forces you to stick to it, but simply writing it helps you to know where you are going and what you have to do to get there. Seems it would be impossible for MAC to police all of the stores anyway. Better to simply address the issue of the dirty fish at the imprt level first.

 

[MaryHM]

So as a new store calling MAC today and wanting to become certified, the main benefit to me is that they will force me to write down how I do things? Hmmm- don't think that's worth the $1500.

Yes, it would seem to be impossible for MAC to police all of the stores, but when you hand someone a certification shouldn't it mean something?? I agree with you that they should address the dirty fish at the import level first. Are they doing that? If so, how?