DOA/Shipping and Handling in the Trade

[Kalkbreath]

We are bouncing around never actually determining what the current facts are. What percentage of the fish stock in 2004 is collected with cyanide? What percentage of the imported fish during the last two years ended up DOA DAA? I order fish from ten plus different sources each month for three years .....And I have never had a fish shipment come close to 40% DOA DAA . I dont have any real connections on fish . So its not that Im much different then other importers. This silly notion that 68%+ of the fish die before being sold is going to turn the heads of any listening Congress men . If any of Frank and Peters data were true .....Fish and wild life would have noticed long ago that when inspecting shipments on average one-third of the fish they examine are dead .? Ever ask US Fish and Wildlife what they witness for DOAs among MO shipments they inspect Peter? Why not ? Peter Can you explain why shippers would not send every shipment east dash or Fed Ex overnight? I mean if general air freight is 48 hours .....and shippers are averaging 68% Then why would not all fish be sent guaranteed overnight? Being that it costs less then double to send the fish three times as fast? Do you really think we are all that stupid? You need to be able to explain why 95% of all fish sent across the coast are not sent as quickly as possible? Or do you think the fish die in the first five minutes after finding out that they are headed east? So saving thirty hours of the duration is mute? :wink: Moot I ment"Moot"

 

[Anonymous]

*moot :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

We only wish kalk (and naesco) were mute.



Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

There has been several questions about when Frank Lallo did his survey and some discussion of mortality numbers. Just thought I'd quote some of the source material...

Peter Rubec, et al "Cyanide-free net-caught fish for he marine aquarium trade", Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 3: 37-51, 2001:

While trans-shipped fish are cheaper, many fish are dead on arrival (DOA) or extremely 'stressed' when they are received by retailers. To the trade, stressed means the fish arrive in poor condition, and many die shortly thereafter. Several retailers on the U.S. East Coast have reported higher mortality with fish purchased from trans-shippers (>60%) in comparison to fish obtained from traditional importers (30-40%) situated in Los Angeles. In addition to all of the above, there are reports of fish being left out on the tarmac by the airlines in mid-winter that are 100% DOA.

An IMA telephone survey, conducted by one of the present authors (Frank Lallo) during 1997, of over 300 U.S. aquarium retailers determined that mortality of marine fish (DOA and during the following three days) was on average: 60% on the east coast, 35% in the mid-west, and 30% on the west coast of the U.S.A.

Peter, if it is not okay to quote your paper directly like this please contact me and I'll take it down. I just thought that it would be good to get some of the source material in front of the readers eyes.

-Lee

 

[PeterIMA]

Lee, It is OK with me. I don't think Kluwer will mind (since the journal Aquarium Sciences and Conservation is no longer being published).

The same information is available on the SPC web site associated with the Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin (where an earlier draft of the paper was published).

Peter

 

[MaryHM]

But what I don't understand is how any of Frank's data can even be published. Both Frank and Peter admit that the data has not been completely analyzed. Am I right about this or did I misinterpret what both of you said?

 

[PeterIMA]

Frank analyzed the data by aggregating it across species within each of the three regions. As you can see I quoted the summary he provided.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

There has been several questions about when Frank Lallo did his survey and some discussion of mortality numbers. Just thought I'd quote some of the source material...

Peter Rubec, et al "Cyanide-free net-caught fish for he marine aquarium trade", Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 3: 37-51, 2001:

While trans-shipped fish are cheaper, many fish are dead on arrival (DOA) or extremely 'stressed' when they are received by retailers. To the trade, stressed means the fish arrive in poor condition, and many die shortly thereafter. Several retailers on the U.S. East Coast have reported higher mortality with fish purchased from trans-shippers (>60%) in comparison to fish obtained from traditional importers (30-40%) situated in Los Angeles. In addition to all of the above, there are reports of fish being left out on the tarmac by the airlines in mid-winter that are 100% DOA.

An IMA telephone survey, conducted by one of the present authors (Frank Lallo) during 1997, of over 300 U.S. aquarium retailers determined that mortality of marine fish (DOA and during the following three days) was on average: 60% on the east coast, 35% in the mid-west, and 30% on the west coast of the U.S.A.

Peter, if it is not okay to quote your paper directly like this please contact me and I'll take it down. I just thought that it would be good to get some of the source material in front of the readers eyes.

-Lee

interesting

the first impression i get is that this points right in the direction of airline/transit time, handling being THE major mortality issue, stateside
(look at the change from east coast to west.the specific mention of the shipments on the tarmac even predisposes the passage to that point)

the question(s) i'm most interested in is, however, what decision making process the individual(s) went through to arrive at

a)how a telephone survey, even if answered truthfully by all participants, is even mildy valid statistically/scientifically, or representative of most of the industry, or able to stand the test of peer revue, if used to back up any statements/claims as data,

and..

b)how did the surveyor(s) assure themselves of the participants veracity ? did they do any independent, 3rd party, checking on the answers given ? (like store logs? invoices, r.o.i. for the livestock sw dept of the lfs, etc?) airway bills ? did they just ask an lfs if they sold sw stock, and go on from there?

i've had customers try to return fish FROM OTHER LFS'S to ours, to try and take advantage of the 7 day warranty the store had-if we didn't have a log of the fish, date, and salesperson, w/their signature, we wouldn't have tripped up nearly 100% of the false claims (one also should know what freezer burn looks like :wink: ))

it's certainly possible that even an honest responder could be duped by his own patrons into thinking his DAA is higher than it is 8O


if the method mentioned above is the main base for the argument of the '30% at each step' or thereabouts claim that is being used to focus on cyanide, and NOT handling, you're on very shaky ground at best

there is absolutely no way to either trace, verify, or back up the assumed data, which was collected with one of the most amateurish methods available to the surveyor(s), and the shift in mortality rates almost flashes a red sign in front of 'airlines and time in transit'



when i was younger and foolish enough to transship, my daa was higher than when i bought from a wholesaler that tanked the fish in cali

that survey just backs up the common sense notion that the longer a continual time a fish spends in a bag in a styro, under transit conditions, the more likely it is to die, and does nothing more

there is no clue to a cyanide issue in that passage, whatsoever, nor any means to assume one

i'm actually shocked

 

[MaryHM]

The funny thing about the east coast vs. west coast rivalry (man, Snoop sure does worm his way into this forum!) is that my west coast customers generally end up getting their fish AFTER many of my east coast customers. How's that, you say? Simple time zone mathematics.

I drop my shipments off at LAX around 7pm on average. Actually, 90% of our business is midwest-east coast. Say I ship an order to a customer who picks up at JFK (New York) and I ship to a customer that picks up in SEA (Seattle). Both arrive at 6am the following morning. Let's say both retailers are early birds and get to the airport when the flight arrives and both pick up at 7am. When it's 7am in New York, it's 4am here. When it's 7am in Seattle, it's 7am here. So Mr. New York Retailer gets his fish 3 hours earlier than Mr. Seattle Retailer.

Now let's try a connection. Everything is the same except I'm shipping to RSW (Ft. Myers, Florida) and EUG (Eugene, Oregon). These are both connections. FL thru Atlanta and EUG through Portland. Florida shipment arrives at 1pm. Oregon shipment arrives at 9:30am. 1pm in Florida is 10am here. So basically the same time.

So barring a flight delay (which does happen, in some areas more than others), east coast gets their fish about the same time as west coast. Now, when a retailer is at an airport where delays are a way of life (*cough* Rover *cough* skel *cough*), there are generally ways to get the freight there on time. For example, the retailer can go pick up at a different airport. Yes, this may mean a 3 hour drive one way, but that's cheaper than consistently losing 60% of your stock. Or shipping guaranteed. Yes, it's more expensive, but worth it if you're consistently losing 60% of your stock. Or discovering that if I can drop off the shipment 1 hour earlier, the customer will receive his fish 5 hours earlier. And yes, there is the rare occasion where the airlines TOTALLY goof and leave something out in the snow or heat or rams a forklift through it or sends it to the wrong station, etc... which results in a 100% loss. But in my 8-9 years of shipping from LA, this probably has happened 20 times, if that. And you'd be amazed how many animals actually survive 2-3 day long delays and the such.

 

[MaryHM]

I don't publish scientific papers (thank God), so I don't know whether or not a phone survey such as Frank conducted would hold up to scientific peer review. Peter?

 

[Anonymous]

One of the main things I noted in the quotation I posted earlier was that the Lallo survey was conducted in 1997. How much has changed regarding shipping mortalities since then?

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

One of the main things I noted in the quotation I posted earlier was that the Lallo survey was conducted in 1997. How much has changed regarding shipping mortalities since then?

-Lee

given that it's just a blind uncorroborated phone survey,i'd wager it's impossible to say, using that survey as the comparator

my impression is that it has improved though by how much, i'll leave to others w/wholesaler exp here to hazard a guess

i can make an informed direct observation on the situation in israel, up through '95, from around '90, in that the mortality rates for doa/daa to wholesalers were quite higher than here for '95-'03, based on the stores i've worked in

most of the major importers (then there were only 4-5 sw) would try to do anything to sell/dump stock as quickly as possible so they wouldn't get hit w/the losses, and most of the facilities had very amateurish design and husbandry upkeep (sub par filtration, etc), so i certainly can't make any assumptions as to what was more at fault/cause for the doa/daa's

from what i've heard, it's improved since then but that's only 2nd hand observation/hearsay :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Wholesalers can only speak for themselves w/ certainty
but this entire subject matter is way off track now.
IT IS IN FACT 2004.
I hear from importers rather often and when its a bad shipment, say 7-9 % they are genuinely upset.
If its as bad as what some of you are talking about, they're outta business.
I got in a whole 1% DOA on a great shipment from the Philippines yesterday. Today was the predictable 1 % more DAA. If someone would camp out here for a month and collate it all into a little study they would conclude that this "willful, wanton wastage' is a fake issue now.
There are some with a stake in the mythology though. The lack of ability to get to the real reform needs in dealing with real life fisherman has led some to want to believe that the DOAS, DAAs and USL are all 'big deals' and that they will focus on them far, far away from where this trade is really put into motion.
Steve

ps. Banter between amatuers, wannabies and computer jockeys contribute nothing at all to understanding these things....nor do they attract importers to want to weigh in and contribute their daily, real life experience..

 

[Kalkbreath]

But you all are about to let the Congress think that 60 to 70 % of the fish landing on the east coast die before being sold, when the truth is that its less then 20% DOA DAA. I have stressed that this lie is going to cause problems if not corrected ............ Yet for two years Mary and Steve have played it off as a great way to aggrandize their own product. If I thought that 70% {thats 60 percent Peters way and then additional 10% DAA for jumpers , tank mate killings and such . }65% of the fish are sold on the East coast ....... Seventy percent of thoses fish die before being sold. I would sign a bill to ban the slaughter as well .

 

[Kalkbreath]

Actually I like this quote.....

While my fellow retailers in your study were bringing in 805 ribbon eels in 1997 I brought in none. While they were bringing in 1390 box fish I might have brought in 2 or 3 in 1997. I probably brought in 50 or more royal grammas. BTW the number of O.Meleagris at 530 seems incredibly high for a fish that doesn't show up in high numbers on the availability lists, when compared to other common fish in the study. These bright retailers brought in 1243 hardy and plentiful Royal grammas and 1390 rare and touchy box and cube fish. They brought in 1061 yellow tangs and 917 purple tangs. I probably brought in 10 yellows to every purple. They brought in 680 difficult moorish idols and only 612 porcupine puffers which I find to be much hardier than the average dealer in the study. I also don't understand how the numbers on S. splendidus (green mandarin) and S. picturatus (psychedelic) ended up being so similar. S. splendidus is offered in much higher numbers and is more attractive. All things being equal I would sell about 7 splendidus to every one picturatus. The low number of green chromis compared to the other damsels doesn't jive with the numbers on the mostly commonly imported species John Brandt listed either.

 

[MaryHM]

Mary and Steve have played it off as a great way to aggrandize their own product.

Excuse me, but when I first started dealing with net caughts I was getting great shipments with extremely low DOA and I was proud of it. I never once agreed that anyone was experiencing 60% DOA with cyanide caught fish. I was just sharing my experiences. The funny thing about your statement is that you act like it would make potential customers interested in net caught fish. You can have 0% DOA/DAA and 0% DOA/DAA at the retailers- they don't care if you don't have the variety. The DOA factor was a selling point to like 3 customers who cared. So please get over yourself about that.

 

[Kalkbreath]

here are the top 10:

1) Green chromis (Chromis viridis)
2) Yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens)
3) Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris)
4) Blue damselfish (Chrysiptera cyanea)
5) 3-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus aruanus)
6) Domino (3-spot) damselfish (Dascyllus trimaculatus)
7) Yellowtail damselfish (Chrysiptera parasema)
8> 4-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus melanurus)
9) Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus)
10) Mandarinfish (Synchiropus splendidus [/quote]

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
We can speak for ourselves with more certainty then others.
Obviously that much isn't coming in DOA. Only a child would think that for every 20 bottles of wine we order, 10 or more break before stocking them.
Its a bogus issue grabbed onto by people who can't think of other ways to contribute.
To take abberrant events and puport them to be the norm is irresponsible.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Mary and Steve have played it off as a great way to aggrandize their own product.

Excuse me, but when I first started dealing with net caughts I was getting great shipments with extremely low DOA and I was proud of it. I never once agreed that anyone was experiencing 60% DOA with cyanide caught fish. I was just sharing my experiences. The funny thing about your statement is that you act like it would make potential customers interested in net caught fish. You can have 0% DOA/DAA and 0% DOA/DAA at the retailers- they don't care if you don't have the variety. The DOA factor was a selling point to like 3 customers who cared. So please get over yourself about that.

Actually I re-read some of the post from last year when we all discussed the Frank Study. And you did dispute the data quite loudly . But if next year every single Congressmen thinks Peter and Franks propaganda is true ................Then would you agree that you under estimated the scope of this poo poo ?

 

[Anonymous]

xcuse me, but when I first started dealing with net caughts I was getting great shipments with extremely low DOA and I was proud of it.

What happened to the inexperienced newbies who didn't know what they were doing? Did they start out bad, or did they start out good and get worse?