• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
What time length makes a wild sps's frags clones to where they can be considered(branded) first generation ie 6 months 1year more ??

Then what time frame would you let the prop crop regenerate before recloning to make 2nd generation 6 months a year more??

I would like to be able to data log a history for future farm stock and brand them by generation but never really read anywhere what time frame makes a frag generation??

what would everyone consider fair?

granted differant corals grow at differant rates but for example..a green Bali stag or any fast growing acro
 

JennM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Aye, there's the rub.

Just what makes a "captive propagated" coral? To my knowledge there are no clear definitions.

Plenty o'folks chop up wild colonies and brand the frags "captive raised" and since there are no clear definitions, who is to say?

IMO and it's ONLY an opinion, F2, or a frag from a frag originating from a wild colony (or F3, or later) could be considered "captive propagated" or "aquacultured" or whatever, but that is only my thought. Perhaps others differ in that opinion too.

Anybody can buy a wild colony, hack it into pieces and sell it as soon as it attaches/encrusts on a plug or other substrate, but I don't know if that qualifies... because there currently is no industry standard.

If one maintains a wild caught mother colony and keeps pruning frags off it periodically... does that qualify? I don't honestly know.

Growth rates etc., depend on the natural patterns of the colony and whether they are maintained in a way that promotes their natural growth, forces growth, etc.

It's all a very grey area I think.

I have traded for frags, eg: Xenia, that originated from someone else's frags, and I consider them "captive raised", because they are at least F2 from the wild, perhaps even more.

I'd be curious to hear others' opinions on this.

Jenn
 

Mike King

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
First off using F1, F2 etc. for Clones is incorrect, as F1, F2 etc in genetics basically refers to first offspring generation (f1), second generation (f2) etc. (frags are not offspring they are clones).

It would be better to use C1, C2, for 1st generation clone, second generation clone etc.

I have found the following works well. ...mother coral, donor coral, = wild stock and is Parent colony. 1st frag from parent colony is C1, once you frag C1 it becomes a C2 (a second generation clone) frag from C2 = C3, frag from C3=C4, etc…….

As far as what makes a coral a captive propagated coral there is no clear answer.

For CORL's requirements the C1 clone must increase its fragment mass by 7 times before it can be refraged into C2. (That is a 1" coral must increase to 7" linier inches), and the C2 must increase its fragment linier or mass by 7 times before its sold

CORL requires its corals to be C2 and 7 times the C2 fragments biomass before being considered Captive Propagated. . (Or be propagated through spawning and raised in captivity until its chances of survival are at least 50% in the wild.)

Because we use In –Situ (on site) and village based raceway mariculture we can easily taylor our artificial donor (mother) reefs for the propagation of the rarer morphs of those species we choose for sale to the MOI.

Even our classification of Captive Propagated runs into snags, as we already have C2's, and C3’s of several of the common species (and their varieties (morphs)) that have been planted onto reefs in restoration areas. Would our C2 Acropora formosa at a restoration site be captive propagated even though its 100% ocean grown?

Hehe sorry just had to toss it in 8O

Mike
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
thanxs that was interesting

anyone else..as jenn mentioned it is very easy for anyone to plate some frags to plugs and brand them...but I'd love to keep a log of each frags history to offer to the hobbyists as well so there is no doubt that they are not purchasing from a run of the mill chop shop...I realize this may take some time to figure out but would like to be able to do somthing no one else has done so there wont be much room for debate later
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
mabey even quarterly growth pictures as well

would this all be a waste of time..or should I just get 100-200 colonys at a time chop them up plate them atleast a year and move them out for the next 1000-2000 or more frags..like alot..actualy I could probably plate them alot faster :)

that would actualy be alot of work to try to keep pictures and records
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
so how about this simple formula

CC= captive clone so CC1 = first year growth from wild colony

CC2= Second year growth from regenerated brood stock wild's

CC3 CC4 etc etc
It would be hard to do it by growth since everyone's would be differant

How could this or some other plan become industry standard so one could actualy be able to brand and certify " truely captive raised frags" and insure fair trade or atleast some type of standard so there is no debate
 

Kalkbreath

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Anyone know what the "F" in F-2 stands for?

I like" F " for fragment better then "C"

The letter "C" should be used to address Captive raised.

......"Mother colony" is "wild" out on the reef ......

.....F-1 is first fragment from that wild mother colony whether its chopped by the natives to be grown out on a farm , or chopped by an online store in the US....F-1 is a fragment from a wild coral.


....F-2 is second fragmentation ........the fraging of the F-1 frag

....C-1 or C-2 Needs to be used on Captive or Closed system propagation.

Maybe M-1 and M-2 should be used form Mariculture corals

We need to keep the first letters in line with the already existing trade lingo.
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
like mike mentioned F is used in genetic breeding programs usally of plants & animals

like squaring & cubing plants with differant genetics, you take about 24 off spring for 4 generations to get to square ,and select the best 2 each time ie the one's that exibit the most desirable traits then rebreed these till you come up with a stablized hybrid strain...I think...its been awhile since I have studied this so could be way off not sure how long it takes to get to cube

The reason I used CC=Captive clone is because Mike at CORL has already used C=clone for their captive mariculter propagation program

the CC=Captive Clone formula seemed simple for anyone to understand since I have a feeling that Mikes company will be well known eventualy to the hobby and their methods will become standard for mariculter
,C already represents their efforts
C is better than F since botnists/horticulterists/breeders would get confussed and think we are breeding when reading this if we use F imo
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I like the idea of just M for mairculter but it dont represent clone

M=mariculter so MC=mariculter clone sice they can actuly breed possibly and use just M sometimes..mabey..

anyone????
 

dizzy

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
In-Situ frags should be called RSF. for Reef Saver frags.

American greenhouse frags could be called BPF for BioPirate frags.


US chopped wild colonies could be CWF.

US chopped in-situ grown out colonies could be called CRSF

BPF grown under 20,000K 1,000 watt lights could be called Artifically colored BioPirate Frags or ACBPF
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
just knew someone would throw their negative wrench in before long..thats ok everyone is entitled to a opinion


I did a little unsucessful research to try to figure what F actualy represents..I only quess that F=fraction

I will keep trying to find out for sure
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
btw no one even mentioned lighting this is about branding...that anyone can do..just trying to come up with a more standardized way to lable my frags so that my intentions are clear to endusers and I myself will be able to log a history
I have 2 lighting threads in the general forum's if ya'd like to go give me input there :)
 

dizzy

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Here you go:

February 20, 2005



Cichlid Breeding Terminology

by D. Jones (aka Number6)

Cichlid husbandry is the process of caring for and breeding the same species of cichlid to produce viable fry for one or more generations. The terminology for cichlid breeding has its roots in Genetic terminology but has evolved or been modified to convey a certain state of the genotype of a fish (Genotype is the genetic makeup of an individual). Cichlid breeders usually wish to begin with a male and female without genetic abnormalities in their genotype so they opt for wild caught specimens. This attempts to select quality parental stock. The appearance of the fish (phenotype) can be used to guess at the genotype quality, but this is just a guess. Fish that have been obtained from their natural habitats are labeled as wild caught (WC) or sometimes a manufactured term, F0 is used to differentiate for any fish ‘wild caught’ from the wild in say Florida or a similar environment other than the fishes natural habitats. The F stands for Filial (genetic sibling) and the zero denotes no relation. This is an assumption, and genetically speaking these fish may not have significantly different genotypes. This is the first deviation from true genetic terms. In genetic terminology, the parents are labeled with a P. According to genetic terminology, to have parental stock from known separate genotypes one should have two separate collection sites or two different variants. However, this is not a goal of good cichlid husbandry.

From a WC or F0, parental stock, fry from the crossing would be labeled as Filial generation (F1). The number following the F denotes the different generations involved in breeding. F1 is the first filial or filial-one generation. This identifies the offspring as the progeny after mating or genetically crossing two types of parents with different genotypes or phenotypes (the parents are known as the P generation). F2 is the second filial or filial-two generation, i.e. the progeny of self-fertile or intercrossing F1 individuals and so on. Members of this generation are two generations removed from the original parent generation. F2 individuals have been in bred one time.

In cichlid husbandry, any generation beyond F3 is often called tank raised to denote the likelihood of genetic similarity to other specimens that may be obtained from hobby breeders in the area. For example, 50 fry forms 25 pairs that in a single generation could produce 1250 new fish. The likelihood of obtaining siblings increases with each generation.

Questions arise when performing a back cross or an outcross. For example, back cross an F2 with an F1 of the same bloodline. It is thought that this is labeled an F3 as the fry are three generations removed from the wild. However, genetically speaking, the fry could not be labeled as such, as this enters the world of line breeding.

Similarly, when out crossing an F2, for example, to a new WC, the progeny are genetically an F1, however hobbyists are expecting the F# as a tool to identify generation removed from wild. The correct label would therefore be WC x F2. Another outcross would be an F1 crossed with an F1 from another bloodline. This does not produce F2. These fish are not inbred one generation. These could be labeled for cichlid hobbyists as F1 x F1. In Genetic terminology, they are actually F1 specimens being from parents of known separate genotypes.

The key to remember, labeling should benefit the buyer, not the seller. Label all fry as clearly and simply as possible and avoid areas of confusion. □
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Latin Filius=son yep F=Filial not Frag or fraction :), good to know I like C=clone like Mike used
What do you think mike..we could not use just C if you already use it for mariculter thats why I figured CC=captive clone would work..since we infact deal with A sexualy propagated clones

what do you think
 

Kalkbreath

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Clone applies to too many situations. All coral cuttings are clones , tank raised , ocean raised .....even broken fragments that regrow on the reef are "clones"
What we need are terms that explain the history of the Clone, what growning conditions has it been subjected to ?
Using the letter "C" would not distinguish between

grown in an ocean farm at twenty feet {blue light}

Grown in raceways on land in three feet of water in daylight { Yellow light}

Grown in green houses using open system water {not captive water} under artificial lights or natural?

All of these examples are "clones" yet not they are far from "captive" Using the letter C and the letters association to captive grown {Artificial} ............falsely gives the buyer the idea that the coral has adjusted to captive conditions like lights and water conditions found in captive environments.
 

coralfarmin

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Captive Clones meaning raised in closed systems(not the ocean) with either natural or artifical light at any degree.This is simple, trying to code by differant lighting etc is crazy since this will vary.

The main point is to establish a time frame from which the coral has left the ocean to become raised in captivity(closed system).

thats why I just figured C=clone as Mike uses it is great for mariculter and just added a C to make CC=captive clone..or captive raised

so C=cloned in open systems since they already use this code for mariculter clones at CORL

CC=cloned in closed systems (regardless of method as long as its a closed system)=Captive Raised
with 1 year between branding each generation ..CC1,CC2 etc etc
 

Mike King

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Talofa,
(A Samoan Greeting)

The Coalition of Reef Lovers (CORL) is presently working toward fulfilling it's existing 1000pc a week orders from selected wholesales wanting to sell CORL’s Community Resource Center’s products and willing to meet our requirements. We have 2 Village based Coral farms producing now in American Samoa (AS) and soon will be starting 3 more. We have also been invited to start CORL bases in several other countries and are seeking funding for them at this time.

We (CORL and its associated village based industries) as a rule only ship C2 stock and it will be at least 6-8 months before we accept any more additional orders. This lag is because; we only sell C2 (second generation cloned), and also place 5 corals onto coral reef restoration and/or rehabilitation projects for every 1 that we sell to the MOI. This means to ramp up production we have to increase our capability by over 600% (5 for every 1 shipped.).

Because CORL is a 501-(c)-3 Public Charity we have no investors and are supported through grants, donations and sponsorships at this time. Those wholesalers we are working with are dedicated to making a difference and are helping us move forward any way they can. CORL helps the village’s to set up the artificial mother reefs, coral nurseries, and then helps the village with its restoration and rehabilitation programs. The coral farms and village industries that CORL sets up not only provide them with a mariculture industry but also provide a way of helping the communities with funding their ecosystem management programs and in environmental education.

The coral and mariculture facilities along with the programs CORL creates are designed to be Eco-Beneficial to the environment and designed in a way that teaches the community to apply Eco-System management and Planning into their every day life.

We have our standards and methodology already in use, but if the members of MOI wish to work together to create a standard nomenclature for Maricultured products I’m very willing to participate and add my 2 cents worth. CORL does have its own chat channel #CORL on afterxnet, where we can discuss what decisions we come up with. I suggest that all those interested in standardizing start by sending me their E-mail addresses along with what they recommend. The next step will be contacting other existing mariculture facilities and organizations involved in mariculture of Marine Ornamentals and getting their input. I currently have the contacts info for over 40 companies and organizations involved in coral mariculture for either the MOI or in coral reef rehabilitation and restoration that I can call on for their input.

I have limited time available now days due to the increasing AS community and international involvement that is developing for CORL programs (and the grant writing duties for those programs). On top of it all, I still have my duties as a Fisheries Biologist V to the American Samoan government for a few more months. Therefore, I cannot participate as much as I would like to in this and other forums. I will however find the time to help develop the needed standardizing of mariculture terms if there is enough participation and help offered.

I Thank You for your interest in CORL.

Fa’afetai
(Thanks!)


Mike King
Director of CORL international
Acting Director of CORL-American Samoa
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top