• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

A

Anonymous

Guest
I thougth I'd help this guy out, and post this here for more poeple to see :D



08/27/2006 08:42 PM

Anthozoan
Registered Member

Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Big Pine Key, Florida
Occupation: Marinelife Collector/ Aquaculturist
Posts: 30


I need your feedback for Indonesian Coral Aquaculture farmers...
I've just started a 5 month internship with the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) here in Bali, Indonesia. The purpose of my internship is to develop a guide and certification protocol for the blossoming lagoon-based coral aquaculture farms that are beginning to pop up.

Soooo, in order to maximize my impact on the coral aquaculture farms here in Indonesia, I would like to gain your feedback in regards to what you like and don't like as the end consumer. Since a brown coral will grow just the same its bright pink counterpart, I am basically looking for suggestions on particular species, color morphs, etc that you would be willing to shell out the most cashish over so that in the end we can bring you only the finest corals that Indo has to offer. If we can increase the demand for these aquacultured rarities, then hopefully we can reduce the demand for the more common wild harvested corals.

I have already been out to see some of these operations and was largely impressed with the quality that they have growing. I will be posting pics in the next few weeks to let y'all know where your corals are coming from. Also, feedback with regards to your experiences with internationally-shipped aquacultured corals would be appreciated. Things like base size and type, etc. Feel free to post pics of the corals you are most interested in.

Thanks in advance for your advice,
Colin Foord
MAC Indonesia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For some background on myself, I have been a reef hobbyist for over 10 years, I graduated from the University of Miami with a BS in marine science and biology in 2004, studied abroad at James Cook University on the GBR in Australia in 2003 studying coral reef ecology and aquaculture. My final thesis was the development of a low-tech (uses only airpumps), hi-yield land-based coral aquaculture facility. Since graduating college I have worked as a fish and invert collector in the Florida Keys. During college I worked at a retail store (Gables Aquarium) and became well familiar with the local wholesalers, and thus I am well versed in the whole chain of custody of our beloved critters from reef to aquarium. Just wanted to get that out of the way to ensure you that I know exactly where you fellow crazy hobbyists are coming from when you are salivating over a particularly colorful ricordia or acropora morph....

Hobby Experience: 10 years, every size, every kind, too much money (ok, never enough really)
Current Tanks: 18 gallon Caribbean Corallimorph and Ricordea tank. 150 watt HQI 14k XM bulb. 12 Gallon Sump w/ built in skimmer and deep sand refugium.
Interests: Reef Aquariums


Here's the thread on RC, it's in the Propigation forum :D
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=916488
 

morepunkthanewe

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I was just getting around to it...seriously :). MorePunkThanEwe=Anthozoan(RC)=Caribbean_Corallimorph(eBay)...
I've actually used Reefs.org much more than RC in the past (Several years ago...can you tell which screen name came first???;-))

Please, any help on this would be greatly appreciated. The MAC staff here in Indonesia are amazingly dedicated and enthusiastic about their work, and it seems like their efforts are beginning to really come to fruition. I am most impressed, and I honestly think that with all y'all's input, we can all be able to make a noticeable difference in the quality of aquacultured corals that end up in your LFS.

Chow,
Colin
 

mark@mac

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
All,

I have to agree with Colin, and good luck! Im sure you will enjoy and learn a great deal working with the MAC Indo staff; they're the BEST.

The MAC INdonesia Country Director is undoubtedy a GREAT asset to MAC, and a world reknowned marine biologist! She is most dedicated to the reefs and the fishers!

I have the utmost respect for her!

Cheers,

Mark
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
GreshamH":rdo5m601 said:
I thougth I'd help this guy out, and post this here for more poeple to see :D



08/27/2006 08:42 PM

Anthozoan
Registered Member

Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Big Pine Key, Florida
Occupation: Marinelife Collector/ Aquaculturist
Posts: 30


I need your feedback for Indonesian Coral Aquaculture farmers...
I've just started a 5 month internship with the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) here in Bali, Indonesia. The purpose of my internship is to develop a guide and certification protocol for the blossoming lagoon-based coral aquaculture farms that are beginning to pop up.

Soooo, in order to maximize my impact on the coral aquaculture farms here in Indonesia, I would like to gain your feedback in regards to what you like and don't like as the end consumer. Since a brown coral will grow just the same its bright pink counterpart, I am basically looking for suggestions on particular species, color morphs, etc that you would be willing to shell out the most cashish over so that in the end we can bring you only the finest corals that Indo has to offer. If we can increase the demand for these aquacultured rarities, then hopefully we can reduce the demand for the more common wild harvested corals.

I have already been out to see some of these operations and was largely impressed with the quality that they have growing. I will be posting pics in the next few weeks to let y'all know where your corals are coming from. Also, feedback with regards to your experiences with internationally-shipped aquacultured corals would be appreciated. Things like base size and type, etc. Feel free to post pics of the corals you are most interested in.

Thanks in advance for your advice,
Colin Foord
MAC Indonesia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For some background on myself, I have been a reef hobbyist for over 10 years, I graduated from the University of Miami with a BS in marine science and biology in 2004, studied abroad at James Cook University on the GBR in Australia in 2003 studying coral reef ecology and aquaculture. My final thesis was the development of a low-tech (uses only airpumps), hi-yield land-based coral aquaculture facility. Since graduating college I have worked as a fish and invert collector in the Florida Keys. During college I worked at a retail store (Gables Aquarium) and became well familiar with the local wholesalers, and thus I am well versed in the whole chain of custody of our beloved critters from reef to aquarium. Just wanted to get that out of the way to ensure you that I know exactly where you fellow crazy hobbyists are coming from when you are salivating over a particularly colorful ricordia or acropora morph....

Hobby Experience: 10 years, every size, every kind, too much money (ok, never enough really)
Current Tanks: 18 gallon Caribbean Corallimorph and Ricordea tank. 150 watt HQI 14k XM bulb. 12 Gallon Sump w/ built in skimmer and deep sand refugium.
Interests: Reef Aquariums


Here's the thread on RC, it's in the Propigation forum :D
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=916488

pretend i'm a typical cheapo hobbyist for a moment ;).....

if a brown and pink coral grow the same, they should be the same price, no? why are you going to charge more for what grows the same?

<off the typical whiner hobbyist soapbox>

the answer to what you should focus on is obvious, and answered by your very own question, and what follows in your own post ;)

COLOR!

(and/or anything that can have a kewl funky name attached to it :P )


99% of anyone who gets into the hobby does so from a visual attraction/ motivation p.o.v.-nuff said-keep 'em purdy, you'll sell 'em :D
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
addendum-never try to focus on a particular color morph, or species, as your main cash cow-especially when open water farming (which has higher risk of diease, bad weather, etc ruining a 'crop')-the buying public is waaaay too fickle to guarantee demand for anything long term , and it's just poor sense to place too many eggs in one basket-keep most of your stuff nice and colorful, with a smaller percentage focusing on the really funky


my .02
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mark,
Gayatri is seriously disillusioned with MAC leadership [ in private] and is naively trying to make something...anything stick to salvage years of failing badly in Bali.
Her need to get divers who actually have and use all nets has led her into an effort to steal divers away from the anti-MAC Les Netcaught Villages complex.
This hasn't worked well and has led her into conflict with others trying to do the right thing apart from MAC.
I like Gayatri a lot as she is very...likeable. But thats just personal and hardly relevant or substantive.
The director of the Les project is most definitely at odds with her over the attempt to steal netfishers away that were trained by non Mac people.
Steve
 

morepunkthanewe

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Let's put a brown coral on eBay, and then let's put a bright pink version of the same species on eBay and let's see what happens shall we? Capitalism at it's very finest, and the consumers let their prioroties be known...

Anyhow, I really don't want to get in the mix of all this MAC gossip and speculation that runs rampant on these message boards. My only goal here is report what see, be it good or bad. I went into this internship with a very open mind, not necesarily for or against the organization that I am working for. My internship had a very specific goal, and it is one that I feel I can accomplish regardless of the leadership or organization above me. When it comes to coral aquaculture, I honestly believe that when done properly, it can be more economically viable (as compared to wild harvest) to the local people, as the product should in theory (when done right) be more desireable at the consumer level. This is much more cut and dry than when trying to wax on the economic benefits or negatives of trying to convince a collector to catch a $0.02 (literally) fish with a net or with cyanide... Anyway... I feel that it is important for me to share my thoughts and experiences while I am here in Bali. Let it be known that while I am "working" for MAC, I am receiving the equivalent of US$5.33 per day to cover my living expenses here. Believe it or not (I was highly skeptical at first), it is very much possible to do this, and thus it is not like I'm getting a huge salary to go out and paint a rosy picture for you all on this here internet. I s'pose I ought start a blog of some sort, so that those that are interested in where their livestock comes from can get a better glimpse than what they may or not believe is the truth....but in the meantime...

I have only been here a week, but already my eyes are wide, wide open to things that I just would not have believed as an aquarist/hobbysist, had I not seen it with my own eyes. To anyone that wants to go on and on about what is right and what is wrong about the fish/coral collection industry, you really need to come and witness it for yourself. I am not saying I am an expert; I only want to report what I have seen. I am working in Bali, so I can't yet comment as to the status of collecting elsewhere in the Pacific. Hopefully in the coming years I will get a chance to see other places, but for now I am just going to have to settle for Bali (terrible innit?)

I just spent the past 5 days in North West Bali with 7 contracted employees of MAC. Keep in mind that these are not a bunch of white skinned folks like myself, but actual, real live Indonesians that don't even speak English good (sic). They are not money-hungary grant eaters as you might imagine, but rather a mix of trained Indonesian marine biologists and current or former fish collectors themselves, and also very enthusiastic and great people. Many of them also work for Reef Check, another important NGO here and throughout the tropical oceanic world. For these fellows, their mission was to meet with 2 local groups of local fish collectors who underwent MAC training 2 years ago. These groups act like a co-op. They collect for themselves, but they are all friends with each other and can buy supplies in bulk to save money and distribute amongst each other. They are very poor, but not destitute. The Balinese people are always smiling, joking, and laughing. To put the fish collectors and MAC staff together, you would have a hard time telling them apart, as they all act like close friends. MAC is not viewed with any sort of suspicion or classism, at least not amongst these two dozen fishermen. The local fishing groups asked to meet with MAC to refresh and to learn new techniques for collecting (They are in fact very eager to learn new and more benign ways for collecting). For its part, MAC has trained a small group of 'Trainers': collectors that underwent MAC training that exemplified the ability to teach other collectors themselves. MAC flew one of these trainers, Ding Dong (really), from the Phillipines where he is a collector, to Indonesia for 2 weeks to demonstrate fishing techniques to fishermen in both Pulau Seribu (islands north of Java), and here on Bali. Again, keep in mind the effort MAC has gone to have a peer teach these fishermen. I observed this training, and it began by asking the fishermen what fish they were having the most difficulty in collecting. Some fish were difficult due to their sheer scaricity (due quite likely to overcollecting), and others were fish that they simply were having trouble collecting with their current net collecting methods. These fishermen are amazingly resourceful at utilizing just about anything they have to make due. Ding Dong went on to demonstrate how to construct push nets and dip nets, and also how to take a hollow piece of bamboo, wedge it into the rock hiding space and catch marine bettas (Comets), amongst other novel ideas for various species such as mandarin fish (Which are apparently almost exclusively collected with cyanide due to their cryptic nature, and which I conjecture might have something to do with their notorious reputation for rejecting food items in the aquarium) , and moray eels. It was hard for me to make out everything 100% of course, because being the pink-skinned fellow I am, I don't yet understand more than a few words of Indonesian. On the following day, Ding Dong, the MAC staff, and the fishermen groups went out to their collecting sites to actually put these methods to use. Unfortunately, no mandarins were seen (fished out), but push nets were put to use with success. Whether these fishermen are 100% cyanide free I can't be sure, but they are definately eager to learn alternative methods. Cyanide is definately still a problem here and readily available, and anyone that doubts it really should consider pulling their head out of the beach sand. I see this training as real progress, not beauracratic progress.

As for my own mission I went to see some coral aquaculture sites in North Bali. I have already seen one densely used site here in South East Bali (Sarangan) and was for the most part very impressed. The Sarangan site is located in a bay that previously was just a coral rubble wasteland (The corals had been heavily mined for cement and road construction in decades past). Really a perfect location. Shallow, clean water, good flow, and as I mentioned otherwise a wasteland. Now that the coral tables have been put into the bay, fish are beginning to return and coral frags from the tables themselves are seeding into proper colonies on the rubble bottom. The only disappointing thing to see is that the coral tables are quite covered with macro algae, and that seems to be the #1 biggest maintenace issue, having to clean all the algae off the plugs and tables. It would make sense that a healthy population of tangs, rabbitfish, or other herbivores would settle in and do the hard work for the farmers. But it seems that other fish collectors are coming in and working the bay, which would eliminate any population before it ever had a chance to build up. Sigh...

Anyway, as for the sites that I saw in North Bali, I was a bit dissappointed, although some minor technical glitches resulted in not being able to see 2 other sites that sounded promising. The first site was located in a muddy-ish bay with less wave action than South Bali site. Therefore, the water was considerably more turbid. The farmers, by their own admission, don't know very much about coral farming (perhaps heard the basics through the grapevine), and it showed here. The tables were made of wood with nylon netting streched in between. The result of this was that when the concrete plugs (ugly and oversized) were placed on top, they tended to make it sag, and since they were not fastened by anything other than gravity, they had a tendancy to tip over. Even worse, these tables had no support legs, rather they were placed ontop of other larger coral colonies! Despite all this, the corals (many were Acropora believe it or not), seemed to be relatively healthy (although not nearly as coloful as South Bali), even the corals that were on their sides. The fishermen tell me that it only takes 3 months for them to grow the corals. This, along with the lack of observable broodstock, suggests that these frags are simply taken off wild colonies and attached down until they've grown onto the plugs and then sold (not sure if these farmers have tried to sell them yet). The other site was located about 75 m off of a volcanic (black sand) beach with heavy wave action. They apparantly have 4 other sites located further offshore (by boat), which they say are the best ones. We weren't able to see these other sites because the fishermen had apparently had some sort of boat 'accident' the day before which prevented us from using it. However, I did look at their 15 near-shore tables, and although I was more impressed by them than the other North Bali site, I wasn't overly impressed. They were at least using properly constructed steel-welded tables, attached securely to the sea floor. However, the water was quite turbid due to the strong waves, and a fine black silt covered a lot of the pieces (especially the Sarcophytons that had "waxed" over). Furthermore, they were using dark grey cement with lightweight volcanic pebbles for the plugs which I didn't find too aesthetically pleasing. White cement is apparently more expensive...

So as you can see the status of the coral aquaculture in Bali is still in it's infancy. Many of the fishermen/farmers are ill-informed and need guidance (that's where I come in...with your input hopefully), but I feel that a big difference can be made with not a lot of effort (when compared to the fish collecting problem).

Another very eye opening thing that I learned from both Ding Dong (representing the Filipino market) and the local MAC staff, was just how ridiculously miniscule an amount that these fishermen are making, and just how disconnected the retail prices that we end up paying. For instance, a fisherman makes 500 Rp (About $0.05) per damselfish (And in the Phillipines $0.02...). From what I recall in Miami, that same damsel sells for about $5. Now the collector is also paid 500 Rp for a Mesolucas Angel (Chaetodontoplus mesoleucas)...$0.05 for a fish that if I recall commands upwards of $50 retail (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a couple years since I worked retail). Obviously, damsels are much smaller and are packed together reducing the overall fish mass to water volume ratio as compared to a singly packed angelfish. It is possible that the angelfish have a higher in-transit mortality, but I doubt it as they are likely packed with greater care than the damsels. But still, I can't fathom that simple basic economic factors are at hand in determining what a retail price will be. As I started this post off, it is the consumer that ultimately places a much greater value on the beautiful angelfish rather than the "starter" damselfish used for cycling ones aquarium. You should have seen the looks on the collectors faces when I tell them that certain fish that they get paid only $0.50 can go for over $100 in the US. They really have no concept of our hobby market.

Ok, all for now, I wrote this fast, probably quite ugly,
Cheers,
Colin

ps. In this litigous society we live in, I suppose I ought to post script this saying that these thoughts and opinions are my own, and are not necessarilty shared by MAC, my current employer. Chow.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ding Dong went on to demonstrate how to construct push nets and dip nets, and also how to take a hollow piece of bamboo, wedge it into the rock hiding space and catch marine bettas (Comets), amongst other novel ideas for various species such as mandarin fish (Which are apparently almost exclusively collected with cyanide due to their cryptic nature, and which I conjecture might have something to do with their notorious reputation for rejecting food items in the aquarium)

Really, even though mandarins close up, not allowing any CN to pass into them? Not to mention their slime coat, another very effective tool against CN.

Ever wonder what the little marks on the back of freshly imported Mandarins are? It's where they shot them with little hyperdermic needle spear guns, like used nearly exclusively in PI. Dunno why indo wouldn't do it like that, although, the do it like that in Les from what I here.

The reason they don't eat, is they're starved for too long in the COC. If you ever get a fresh one, you know ;)
 

WayneSallee

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Very interesting reading, morepunkthanewe. Keep us posted. Obviously grazers would help a lot in cleaning the tables, but if the table tops were removable, having a few extra on hand, and swiching them out as the ones taken out are allowed to dry could help.


Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]
 

mark@mac

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for the post Colin,

I concur. When I was there I visited one newer aquaculture site right in Sanur... Only a few months old, the corals looked great and the fish were really beginning to colonize around the grow out tables.... Many,many young fish... Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

ciao,

Mark
 

Jaime Baquero

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
cortez marine":6e8vexsu said:
Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

YES...AS MARK SAID, ENJOY YOUR VACATION.
sTEVE

GreshamH and all,,

This is why MAC won't ask this here. Once again S. Robinson showing lack of respect and manners.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jaime Baquero":26gvc657 said:
cortez marine":26gvc657 said:
Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

YES...AS MARK SAID, ENJOY YOUR VACATION.
sTEVE

GreshamH and all,,

This is why MAC won't ask this here. Once again S. Robinson showing lack of respect and manners.

Umm, a the MAC intern is posting here.
If other MAC people want to post here, but are worried about 'lack of respect', please have them contact me at [email protected] or [email protected]. I have written the above several times in this forum and have never been contacted by someone from MAC. This leads me to believe that claims as to why MAC isn't posting here are just rhetoric.
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
He writes;
"Hopefully in the coming years I will get a chance to see other places, but for now I am just going to have to settle for Bali (terrible innit?) "

actually...
I was agreeing with him that hes got a nice gig going.
Steve
 

Jaime Baquero

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thales,


Steve's post subject "Babes in the woods" and his comment Enjoy your vacation, are remarks that shouldn't have place here.

Colin's contribution is serious and important and should be considered by all as such.

MAC members got the same treatment from the same individual in many occasions. Is possible that they do not bother visiting this forum anymore knowing that nothing changes.... the same guy..... with the same lack of tact and manners.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
oh jaime

give it a rest, pleeeze

we're all big boys (and girls) here
 

clarionreef

Advanced Reefer
Location
San Francisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Colin writes;
The local fishing groups asked to meet with MAC to refresh and to learn new techniques for collecting (They are in fact very eager to learn new and more benign ways for collecting). For its part, MAC has trained a small group of 'Trainers': collectors that underwent MAC training that exemplified the ability to teach other collectors themselves.


MAC flew one of these trainers, Ding Dong (really), from the Phillipines where he is a collector, to Indonesia for 2 weeks to demonstrate fishing techniques to fishermen in both Pulau Seribu (islands north of Java), and here on Bali.

"Again, keep in mind the effort MAC has gone to have a peer teach these fishermen."

Colin,
Mac has claimed to have trained hundreds of collectors in Bali already using local talent...in quarterly report after quarterly report.
You just confirmed that to be false and I thank you.
Bringing in Ding Dong from the Philippines should make no sense but since the Seribu islands are well stocked with cyanide fisherman despite MACs multi year presence there makes it clearer.
The Les village has dozens of good net catchers and several good trainers. But...they will not work with MAC anymore on account of past, chronic failure.
Welcome to the forum. Give our best to Gayatri.
Steve
PS.
Colin...you are the next... disgruntled ex MAC employee. They all are.
You'll be joining us by next year.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Jaime Baquero":1yjvxklt said:
cortez marine":1yjvxklt said:
Enjoy your time there; I sure did!

YES...AS MARK SAID, ENJOY YOUR VACATION.
sTEVE

GreshamH and all,,

This is why MAC won't ask this here. Once again S. Robinson showing lack of respect and manners.

Like all else that have chimend in, get over it. Steve's post was far from outaline :roll: Is this what the vacuum of Neasco leaving gains us?
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top