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Ret_Talbot

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Greetings, All.

I'm hearing a lot of buzz right now about "ship light" options that are being offered by wholesaler(s) to save their customers freight, and I am currently drafting an article.

For those of you unfamiliar with the term, "shipping light" refers to shipping animals in less water to lighten the overall weight and thereby reduce freight charges. The rumored result has been higher than average DOA.

Is there anyone who can confirm or deny the existence of this practice or who has any thoughts or information they would like to share either on the record or off?
 

swsaltwater

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Yes it is happening, I think it needs fine tuning, sensitive specimens do not seem to handle it as expected, but damsels, chromis, clowns, etc might be ok. Time will tell, but for now i will ask for sensitive animals to be bagged with more water.
 

IconicAquariums

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This is more like the style of the fish when they are sent into the country. I know it makes a big difference in the overall price (some wholesalers insist on 250 Bangaii in a box vs. 75) without regard for the animals. Most hobbyists don't realize that most fish like clowns & damsels & even tangs are spending 2 days in 3-4" bags (4-6oz water).
 

dizzy

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Jadefox":333unea1 said:
For those of you unfamiliar with the term, "shipping light" refers to shipping animals in less water to lighten the overall weight and thereby reduce freight charges. The rumored result has been higher than average DOA.

Why do you think DOA would be higher? Is ammonia the culprit? Is O2 depletion? What are the water temps in the DOA bags? When the bowels of the fish have been emptied, I always heard it was more important to have enough air/O2 in the bag verus extra water. The first step in understanding this mystery is to determine cause of death. Checking the shipping water would be a great place to start.

PS
I think most of us in the business have had fish come in fine, that were in bags that 96% (or more) of the water had leaked out of.
 

Ret_Talbot

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dizzy":2f4ejcwu said:
Jadefox":2f4ejcwu said:
For those of you unfamiliar with the term, "shipping light" refers to shipping animals in less water to lighten the overall weight and thereby reduce freight charges. The rumored result has been higher than average DOA.

Why do you think DOA would be higher? Is ammonia the culprit? Is O2 depletion? What are the water temps in the DOA bags? When the bowels of the fish have been emptied, I always heard it was more important to have enough air/O2 in the bag verus extra water. The first step in understanding this mystery is to determine cause of death. Checking the shipping water would be a great place to start.

This is the exact study that Jerry Heidel, director of OSU’s Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory, and Tim Miller-Morgan, an OSU veterinarian with the Oregon Sea Grant Extension did in conjunction with Hollywood Aquariums and Sea Dwelling Creatures, Inc. I have not been able to get a copy of their published results. If anyone has it, I'd love to see it.


dizzy":2f4ejcwu said:
PS
I think most of us in the business have had fish come in fine, that were in bags that 96% (or more) of the water had leaked out of.

[/quote]

The differnece here, of course, is intentionally shipping with less water and the effect on the animal.
 

PeterIMA

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Shipping fish is part art part science. The shipper must take into account the time the fish will be in the bags from the time of packing to the time they are unpacked (not just the flight time). The fish excrete ammonia and carbon dioxide as well as organic waste (if they are not properly purged prior to shipment). The pH can fall below 6.5 due to the accumulatin of carbonic acid (from the excreted carbon dioxide). Ammonia that is excreted can be dealt with using chemical additives. The pH drop can be controlled to some extent using buffers, but I am not aware that this is usually done. I wrote a paper with Ferdinand Cruz on this subject in 2005 in the LIve Reef Fish Information Bulletin (#13).

As far as how much water must be added, I agree with Dizzy that some fish come in alive with almost no water (if the bag leaks) and may still be alive. The critical factor is to ensure that there is enough oxygen in the bags for the duration that the fish are shipped. I receive net-caught fish that often have been in the bags for 50 hours. They come through alive and stay alive if enough oxygen is present in the bags. With less oxygen they may come in alive but are stressed contributing to DAA.

Peter
 
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Anonymous

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So you're saying that they're not being shipped in bags with less than the 'usual' 1/3-1/4 bag volume filled with water?

The problem I remember having was that we could certainly fill all that empty space (air space) with O2, but the ammonia the animals excrete became the problem. It's a fine balance, and I can see how you could do it with animals possessing labyrinthine organs, but others...? It's been quite a few years since I've bagged a fish, let alone packed for ship, but salties were always especially problematic in this regard because many of the tricks we could use with freshies just didn't work for salt (for instance, tossing in some Zeolite with the goldfishes and koi).
 

Ret_Talbot

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PeterIMA":2863f4eg said:
Shipping fish is part art part science. The shipper must take into account the time the fish will be in the bags from the time of packing to the time they are unpacked (not just the flight time). The fish excrete ammonia and carbon dioxide as well as organic waste (if they are not properly purged prior to shipment). The pH can fall below 6.5 due to the accumulatin of carbonic acid (from the excreted carbon dioxide). Ammonia that is excreted can be dealt with using chemical additives. The pH drop can be controlled to some extent using buffers, but I am not aware that this is usually done. I wrote a paper with Ferdinand Cruz on this subject in 2005 in the LIve Reef Fish Information Bulletin (#13).

I did read that paper. Thanks! I understand the changes to water quality and the resulting effect on the animals. What I don't know is 1) if "shipping light" results in higher mortality or not, and 2) what the scientific data is to back up the practice of "shipping light". The rumor is that mortality is higher when "shipping light".

PeterIMA":2863f4eg said:
As far as how much water must be added, I agree with Dizzy that some fish come in alive with almost no water (if the bag leaks) and may still be alive. The critical factor is to ensure that there is enough oxygen in the bags for the duration that the fish are shipped. I receive net-caught fish that often have been in the bags for 50 hours. They come through alive and stay alive if enough oxygen is present in the bags. With less oxygen they may come in alive but are stressed contributing to DAA.

So here's my question: If "shipping light" is based on science and does not increase DOA or DAA, then why are all wholesalers not "shipping light" to their customers? Buying oxygen is certainly cheaper than paying to ship water.
 

Ret_Talbot

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seamaiden":2g59xmjd said:
So you're saying that they're not being shipped in bags with less than the 'usual' 1/3-1/4 bag volume filled with water?

I'm saying that there is at least one wholesaler advertising an "improved packing method" which is advertised as being up to 50% cheaper in terms of shipping cost. So, yes, I suppose it follows that they are shipping with less water than "usual."
 

dizzy

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Jadefox":1vpes90k said:
So here's my question: If "shipping light" is based on science and does not increase DOA or DAA, then why are all wholesalers not "shipping light" to their customers? Buying oxygen is certainly cheaper than paying to ship water.

I've asked wholesalers about this in the past. The answer was that many of the retailers wanted the fish shipped in more water. This was not based on science but on retailers feelings that fish shipped in more water must do better. This also came to be an accepted practice when freight was cheaper. I generally advise wholesalers shipping to me not to over do it on the water, since the survival rates (IME) are not significally better in overpacked fish. I think a lot of DOA on domestic freight comes from reshipping fish that were stressed on international flights, and didn't have enough time to completely recover prior to being rebagged. The general rule seems to be if the fish is turning on its side or swimming upside down, it is not ready to go, but once it swims normally it is good to go.
 

Ret_Talbot

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dizzy":3ppxu0qs said:
Jadefox":3ppxu0qs said:
So here's my question: If "shipping light" is based on science and does not increase DOA or DAA, then why are all wholesalers not "shipping light" to their customers? Buying oxygen is certainly cheaper than paying to ship water.

I've asked wholesalers about this in the past. The answer was that many of the retailers wanted the fish shipped in more water. This was not based on science but on retailers feelings that fish shipped in more water must do better. This also came to be an accepted practice when freight was cheaper. I generally advise wholesalers shipping to me not to over do it on the water, since the survival rates (IME) are not significally better in overpacked fish. I think a lot of DOA on domestic freight comes from reshipping fish that were stressed on international flights, and didn't have enough time to completely recover prior to being rebagged. The general rule seems to be if the fish is turning on its side or swimming upside down, it is not ready to go, but once it swims normally it is good to go.

But if there is scientific data to back up the practice of shipping light without increased DOA and DAA, then why would retailers cling to a practice that is anecdotal and emotional and more expansive?
 

dizzy

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Jadefox":71nkna9e said:
But if there is scientific data to back up the practice of shipping light without increased DOA and DAA, then why would retailers cling to a practice that is anecdotal and emotional and more expansive?

Let me answer your question with a question. Why do people continue to smoke despite the known health risks and the increased cost? If fish can survive the long international flights in lesser amounts of water, why do they need to be overpacked on domestic flights?
 

Ret_Talbot

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dizzy":2mz3j9y6 said:
Jadefox":2mz3j9y6 said:
But if there is scientific data to back up the practice of shipping light without increased DOA and DAA, then why would retailers cling to a practice that is anecdotal and emotional and more expansive?

Let me answer your question with a question. Why do people continue to smoke despite the known health risks and the increased cost? If fish can survive the long international flights in lesser amounts of water, why do they need to be overpacked on domestic flights?

lol...good question. How about this then, if "shipping light" works and there is data to support that it works (which I still have not seen by the way although I have requested it), then why don't all wholesalers "ship light"?

I have spoken with at least two other wholesalers who catagoricaly deny that "shipping light" is a sustainable/ethical practice given increased DOA and DAA. At least one of those wholesalers is actively "educating" their customers against taking advantage of any "shipping light" offers. All I want is to report the reality in my story--they can't both be right. Right?
 

dizzy

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Jadefox":36tg9w5r said:
I have spoken with at least two other wholesalers who catagoricaly deny that "shipping light" is a sustainable/ethical practice given increased DOA and DAA. At least one of those wholesalers is actively "educating" their customers against taking advantage of any "shipping light" offers. All I want is to report the reality in my story--they can't both be right. Right?

Jadefox,
Seeing the data would be nice. How about calling those wholesalers back and seeing if that is the way they get all their livestock shipped in. It would probably more than double their landed costs on many fish, since the freight is often more than the cost of the fish. There may be some fish that benefit from the extra water and plenty more that don't need it. This is an area that has needed studying and fine tuning for quite some time now. It certainly wouldn't be hard to do some shipping tests to compare DOA.
 

Ret_Talbot

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dizzy":1p8z6ezh said:
Jadefox":1p8z6ezh said:
I have spoken with at least two other wholesalers who catagoricaly deny that "shipping light" is a sustainable/ethical practice given increased DOA and DAA. At least one of those wholesalers is actively "educating" their customers against taking advantage of any "shipping light" offers. All I want is to report the reality in my story--they can't both be right. Right?

Jadefox,
Seeing the data would be nice. How about calling those wholesalers back and seeing if that is the way they get all their livestock shipped in. It would probably more than double their landed costs on many fish, since the freight is often more than the cost of the fish. There may be some fish that benefit from the extra water and plenty more that don't need it. This is an area that has needed studying and fine tuning for quite some time now. It certainly wouldn't be hard to do some shipping tests to compare DOA.

I agree. The study was done in 2005, and I have requested the report but to no avail. For a study that promised to be about making the industry better, it sure is hard to get a hold of it...lol.

I asked that question of some of the wholesalers (about how they get their livestock in), and I was told that the same wholesaler advertising the "shipping light" option always requests their incoming shipments to be "shipped light" (compared to the way the wholesalers receive their shipments). Of course this is all heresay at this point until independent confirmation can be achieved.
 

dizzy

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Jadefox":3omj1xbo said:
I asked that question of some of the wholesalers (about how they get their livestock in), and I was told that the same wholesaler advertising the "shipping light" option always requests their incoming shipments to be "shipped light" (compared to the way the wholesalers receive their shipments). Of course this is all heresay at this point until independent confirmation can be achieved.

Sounds like they have confidence in the light shipping. I'm not sure how shipping light, compares to normal shipping on international import flights. I have seen wholesalers bag fish for domestic flights in 4x the water they received them in. Just maybe double would have worked pretty well. I don't believe the shipping light will work very well if they have to replace to many fish. I would say the feedback they receive from retailers will be as valuable any research that you could do. Shouldn't take long to see if this works out.
 

Fish_dave

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I would like to toss out a few of my thoughts on this "shipping light" deal.

I think that everyone would agree that the motivation behind shipping light is economic, to save money on the freight bill. I don't think that there is any study or any person that can make a case that shipping with less water is actually better for the animal. The reason to use less water is to save money. When we put animals in a closed bag with water things start to go bad. It would follow that the less water in the bag the faster things can go bad. Take this to the extremes and more water equals better, no problems and less water equals worse, at the extreme no water and death for aquatic animals. I think that it is pretty clear, no studies needed. Less water in shipping is worse, more water is better when only looking at the health of the animals.

It is not a well defined line when you have "enough" water and when there is too little. There are so many variables that it just can not be accuratly predicted. When the result is death of the animal it is clear that you have gone to far. When the animal is still alive it is much harder to tell if it has been negativly affected by too little water. Is it overstressed ? Will it die later? Have gills or internal organs been compromised? All of this is very hard to quantify. Logic would lead us to believe that more water in shipping would reduce the chance of residual effects on the animals. For the health of the animal more water is better and less water is worse.

As the only argument for using less water (that holds water) is economic, does that argument make sense ? When shipping internationally it probably does. Fish coming from the source generally have a low value compared to the freight costs to move them around. If a few die the cost is not large compared to the freight costs. After a fish gets to the states and is marked up by a wholesaler the cost is much higher, often many times the cost from the source. Much more money is now invested in that fish so the value of the fish compared to freight costs to move it around are now flip flopped. The fish is worth much more than the freight to move it around. Economics would now say that it is worth the extra freight costs if it keeps the fish more healthy. This is also true with expensive or rare fish shipped internationally, if the value of the fish is high we use a lot more water to ship the fish as the freight is not as much of a concern as is the health of the fish. Economically as the value of the fish increases the impact of the freight costs to move the fish decreases and the need to keep the fish healthy increases greatly. Fish in the states have a high value due to accumulated costs to get them here. Just looking at it from the economics freight costs should be secondary to fish health due to the high value of the fish at this point.

The argument that fish are shipped internationally with much less water than domestically is a poor argument. International freight is booked freight with high priority. Delays can and do happen but not nearly as much as with domestic freight. Domestic freight is low priority and delays and poor handling are almost the norm and not an exception. Shipping with a minium amount of water can be successful on a perfect flight but throw in a delay or a few hours spent on hot tarmac in Phoenix during a transfer and the whole shipment can be a disaster. With more water for packing the outcome will often be much better.

I do not think that a good case can be made for shipping with minimal water amounts. With the uncertainties inherent in domestic shipping I want my fish packed in a reasonable or even excess of water. If the freight cost were taken away I do not know of anyone that would not ship fish with an excess of water. The only reason I can think of to ship light is economic and for the above reasons I do not think that the economic argument holds up.

So far I have not brought up the fact that these are live animals that we are talking about and we should put the health of the animals above the simple economics. In my opinion it is just not right to cause a possible health issue to save a few quarters. International freight is often double the cost value of the fish, domestic freight is rarely even half the cost value of the fish once they are in the U.S. I have often asked for a heavier pack for my fish, I can not remember ever telling a shiper to ship lighter.

Please let's not go down the road of compromising fish health to save a small amount of money. These are live animals, price should not be an issue that compromises health. If your freight costs go up, raise the price of the animals. Price should not compromise health.

Dave
 
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Fish_dave":2r7e3poo said:
So far I have not brought up the fact that these are live animals that we are talking about and we should put the health of the animals above the simple economics. In my opinion it is just not right to cause a possible health issue to save a few quarters. International freight is often double the cost value of the fish, domestic freight is rarely even half the cost value of the fish once they are in the U.S. I have often asked for a heavier pack for my fish, I can not remember ever telling a shiper to ship lighter.

Please let's not go down the road of compromising fish health to save a small amount of money. These are live animals, price should not be an issue that compromises health. If your freight costs go up, raise the price of the animals. Price should not compromise health.

Dave

While I agree with all you said, I just had to quote your two closing paragraphs that I feel people should pay very close attention to.

Thanks for such a great post Dave :)

BTW...fighting exporters to pack better (IE. more water, larger bags for those that need it, etc) was nearly a daily deal when I was in wholesale MO. Importer A would always pester them to pack lighter/more to the box and we'd have top fight that every shipment.
 
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Jadefox":75vantjt said:
seamaiden":75vantjt said:
So you're saying that they're not being shipped in bags with less than the 'usual' 1/3-1/4 bag volume filled with water?

I'm saying that there is at least one wholesaler advertising an "improved packing method" which is advertised as being up to 50% cheaper in terms of shipping cost. So, yes, I suppose it follows that they are shipping with less water than "usual."
Sorry for the typo, that was supposed to say, 'they're NOW being shipped', not NOT being shipped. :oops:
 

dizzy

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Fish_dave":3qd89b5w said:
The argument that fish are shipped internationally with much less water than domestically is a poor argument. International freight is booked freight with high priority. Delays can and do happen but not nearly as much as with domestic freight. Domestic freight is low priority and delays and poor handling are almost the norm and not an exception. Shipping with a minium amount of water can be successful on a perfect flight but throw in a delay or a few hours spent on hot tarmac in Phoenix during a transfer and the whole shipment can be a disaster. With more water for packing the outcome will often be much better.
Dave

You can use a higher priority freight rate with few problems IME, but that may not be the case to certain destinations. I can't recall the last time it took longer than 24-hours to receive a fish order shipped SW RUSH. It might have happened 2 times in the past 5-7 years. I also wonder if an order was say 8 boxes instead of 14 or so if it might get pushed on through a little easier since it would require less space on the plane. I don't believe the airlines like to split the cargo onto different flights. If your willing to pay a bit extra for expedited freight are you unethical if you go for a tigher pack? It may also be that fish need extra packing in extreme heat or cold compared to the milder seasons, but ice and heat packs work pretty well. I won't transship in saltwater fish or corals because the DOA rate is to high, but I would like to see shipping efficiency on reliable flights.
 

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