My Fish Are Dead - Ideas Why?

[ellebelle]

I should also have added that I waited several days before I netted all of the fish out of the tank. Between Wednesday, when Brett noticed the ich and Saturday when we netted them out, the wrasse and another one of the chromis also had white spots on it. My decision to net them all out was actually based on the fact that when I woke up on Saturday morning, the wrasse had a huge white spot on his side that looks pretty bad. It was the spread of the ich that made me decide to take them all out.

 

[Deanos]

I don't buy the stress being the killer only because 5 fish were swimming around in the QT happy and healthy when we went out, and a few hours later 4 were dead and one didn't look good.

Stress wouldn't kill the fish instantly. It could take several hours to hit home, especially after already being sick then subjected to temperature swings.

 

[KathyC]

Sorry to hear of your loss!
You did a great job of describing all that happened with your fish and that info was very helpful.
IMO the lack of O2 was the final culprit here. The bloody gills/fins is a big clue and the spike in temp the prior day probably depleted a good deal of the available O2 that was in the tank. Fish that are being medicated should have an increase in available oxygen, so it is best to err on the side of caution and add an airstone to the tank.

 

[cali_reef]

I don't buy the stress being the killer only because 5 fish were swimming around in the QT happy and healthy when we went out, and a few hours later 4 were dead and one didn't look good.

I would have left them along in the main tank if they were "Happy and healthy". Fish get ich from stress, a happy fish in a healthy tank will not show signs of ich. IMO and IME, ich is always in the tank, you just need some stress for the fish to show you they are there.

There couldn't have been a cycle, as the levels all read 0 and we used water from the main tank for the QT.

Water from an established tank still need substrate, rocks, or other areas where bacteria can colonize and continue the nitrogen cycle. A bare tank with some dirty water and a instant bio load will cause a "cycling" event. A proper QT tank have to be up and running at all times, with a filter and some hiding areas. Putting sick fishes in a fresh bare tank just stress them out more, causing the ammonia to go thru the roof in a short period.

 

[ellebelle]

I put plenty of PVC pipe in the QT tank for hiding places. And I tested all of my levels and they were zero. So whether or not it's POSSIBLE for a barebottom QT tank to go through an instant cycle, I do not think that is what happened here.

It seems to me that my mistake was not using an airstone or a second powerhead to aerate the water, or possibly some other disease. But I think maybe lack of O2 seems like the most likely culprit.

I know that I am not an experienced reefer, but I am an experienced biologist. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that a disease is "always" in your tank and it is stress that brings it out. I'm sure that as with any disease, stress makes an individual more suspetible to infection, but a healthy, unstressed individual can also contract a disease if exposed to it for a long enough period of time.

 

[masterswimmer]

The denitrifying bacteria does not colonize in the water column. It requires the LR or a porous surface (sponge, sand, etc) to multiply. Having plenty of pvc for hiding places does not help the biological filtration (it will help the stressed fish though). A newly set up QT with no cycled LR, sand or sponge will have a cycle if you add 4 or 5 fish to it.

Water temp is another huge factor here. As Randy stated, depleted O2 levels are the likely culprit. As water temp rises, O2 levels diminish.

From the facts you listed (which were great btw. You were very precise with your details), I see numerous factors contributing to the deaths. Each one, in and of themselves would have stressed the fish, but probably not killed them. Comingle all the factors and it was just too much for the fish to handle.

swimmer

 

[House of Laughter]

Liss,

bottom line, don't try any combinations of the above activity again - trying to isolate the "actual cause" is like finding a needle in the hastack and unless you are going to perform a full forensic autopsy on your fish, you'll never know exactly why.

Try not to do that again - I also subscribe to the leave them in and remedy within position - that tank is already stable.

Keeping in mind that a square box (I think you're at 29g) is only so stable.

Sorry for your loss - also, the bloddy spots sounds like a bacterial infection - I would let your tank go 'Fallow" for 3-4 weeks then add new QT'ed fish.

House

 

[ezee]

Lissa,

Wow, that sucks.

I killed one of my first fish too when I quarantined him, now I kinda just let them be and try to provide a very stable and healthy environment for them. You can wait and let the tank go fallow but it is very difficult to eradicate ich and I also find that when the tank is stable and happy the fish are too.

Finally, 5 fish in a new 10 gallon QT may have been too unstable, the ammonia could have spiked very, very quickly, the temp could have changed, etc. That would be my guess.

E

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Here's what I think:
1)I assume you have tested the water in your Qt frequently and that you know how to use the test kits (may be even better than many of us) since you are a biologist.
2)The syms of the corpses you described do seem like they die of O2 depletion but that does not rule out they are too weak to begin with.
3)A bare tank with bioload will eventually have a cycle but does not look like it contributes into this case since you found no ammonia. Assuming you test the water frequently and found no ammonia-that means the cycle has not even started. For those who guess the cycle may have gone to another phase may also be incorrect because ammonia is an compound where the N has to find somewhere to go to. There is no ammonia, no nitrite nor nitrate found-where could it have gone? Furthermore, there is no established LR, sponge, nor enough surface for the bacteria to break them down, nor anything to turn the N into N2. The only explanation left is ammonia has never existed or so little that they are broken down by the tiny amount of bacteria anchoring on the surface of the tank and PVCs. If ammonia ever existed and can be broken down by the bacteria in a bare tank, there is no reason to believe so small amount of ammonia can kill the fish. Does that sound like ammonia level at .000X. You also mentioned that you feed only TINY bit of food so I know you must have a sense of the food may foul the water, so I would say ammonia is not what kill them.
4)However, everyone here have contributed very accurately the proper and better care of fish such as Qt should be always running, a Qt tank should have something to remove ammonia.., a Qt of 10G for 5 fish may be too small, there will be a cycle in a bare tank with bioload...., Sometimes(not necessarily all the times)leaving them alone in the main tank and try to increase the health enivronment of the fish(IMO this reflects the way how a doctor treat cancer and some other diease-depending on the status of the diease, even same cancer, the doctor will choose between laser, surgery or just medicine) , and so forth.
5)I hope WingnuX make sense this time:skull:

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

I just think all of the factors, the disease, the catch, transfer, temp change, less disolved O2 in the qt tank and stress added up and caused a great tragedy. Any update on the surviving chromis? How's he doing? Again I am sorry for your loss.

 

[ellebelle]

Surviving Chromis seems to be okay. He ate yesterday morning and spent a lot of time swimming around my tank - he spends a lot of time interested in his reflection. Poor little schooling fish. It reminds me a lot of Eric's clownfish's behavior when one of the pair of them died. I figure if he manages to make it the next couple of days, then he'll live. They're pretty hardy fish, so I hope he'll live.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Surviving Chromis seems to be okay. He ate yesterday morning and spent a lot of time swimming around my tank - he spends a lot of time interested in his reflection. Poor little schooling fish. It reminds me a lot of Eric's clownfish's behavior when one of the pair of them died. I figure if he manages to make it the next couple of days, then he'll live. They're pretty hardy fish, so I hope he'll live.

good to hear

 

[scarf_ace1981]

lisa what test kits do you use?

 

[ellebelle]

I have a variety of test kits, actually. My pH and Ammonia are Salifert. My copper, calcium and alkalinity tests are by SeaTest. My Nitrate and Phosphate test kits are Instant Ocean. I like the Salifert ones the best as they are obviously the most accurate, and I like the SeaTest ones the least.

I've been trying to see if I can order a couple of test kits through one of the bio labs associated with my university, as those would be the most accurate and most cost effect of all for me. No luck yet, though.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Get some garlic extract and start feeding the chromis with that added to his food. It will help build up his imune system.

 

[ellebelle]

I've been feeding them food with additional garlic, and I've been checking GNC and other vitamin stores for the liquid garlic extract, but I haven't found any yet. Any suggestions of where to look? (Other than the Kent garlic supplement which I also haven't been able to find locally.)

 

[jhale]

Liisa, sorry to hear about your fish.

for garlic i think it's best to crush up fresh garlic and chop it up.
mix that in with some food and it will be better for the fish.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Liisa, sorry to hear about your fish.

for garlic i think it's best to crush up fresh garlic and chop it up.
mix that in with some food and it will be better for the fish.

for using garlic, I agree that crushing up fresh garlic will be more effective than using extract but just a little bit of hazel.