new tank, problems.

[Kyliegirl]

I recently started up a new tank, after adding live rock, i found a significant ammount of life in my tank, counting over 8 brittle stars, mysid shrimp, copepods, even a very tiny hairy crab and all types of worms.

after two days , the brittle stars began to tear apart. like being mutilated, and many inhabitants died. now i know being a new tank, it wouldnt be ready for new life, but we cant prevent the hitchikers.

after a test my ammonia had spiked from 0 the previous day to 0.50, thats a pretty big jump i think, and possibly the reason why my brittle stars died horribly.

I did a 10% water change the day the ammonia was at .50, but I did a test today, and the ammonia has not dropped. I am aware that new tanks get ammonia spikes at the beginning, but I am worried the ammonia wont drop, I am unsure how much bacteria I have in the tank, and with the mass deaths in the tank, there would be heaps of ammonia spilling out.

My ph has also sat at 8.0, despite my attempts to raise it with seachem marine buffer (meant to raise the ph to 8.3, ive been dosing daily) there has been no signs of change. Is there a way to raise it other than buffer?

I am adding a new load of live rock this week hopefully, as I have only 8kg in atm. Will this increase the bacteria more quickly to remove the ammonia? or will my ammonia spike even higher?

I did however find one or two survivors, obviously tough skinned, two banded brittle stars still survive, I thought i had one which was hiding inside a sponge type thing on the rock, but I spotted one crawling along the tank wall tonight which looked in rather good shape. I am worried they might have a horrible death like the other stars.

the tank is a 20/25 gallon, with a 2 inch sand bed.

 

[SnowManSnow]

Hey KY!

I'm not an expert, but I do have some experiance with small (10-40g) reef tanks, so I may can offer some consolation and advice.

I'm going to assume you're shooting for a reef tank one day.

First, in regard to your amonia spike, It's probably due to some die off on your LR (which in turn killed more organisms and caused a higher spike). With a brand new tank that's bound to happen. What you want to do is take things slow and allow the tank to cycle and stabalize itself. The water changes will help, but on a 25 with no livestock I would up it to at least a 5g change for a few weeks.

I didn't see mention of a skimmer. IMO a skimmer may be the single most important investment you'll make in a reef tank. A good skimmer WILL speed you along in your cycle process. If you can drop about $150 for a skimmer I would HIGHLY recommend an AquaC Remora hang on tank (HOT) skimmer for a 25 g. It would be more than adequate and do an awesome job.

With decent circulation and a good skimmer give your tank about 2 weeks to get underway while checking am. and ni.

I noticed you were having ph problems, which you shouldn't have IMO. Most salt mixes will balance your PH and you don't really have to worry about it. I've used Instant Ocean, and it keeps things in check just right.

BTW, if you're new to salt water don't add salt to your top off water for evaporation :roll: Lots of ppl forget that.

This is probably more than you'd care to know, but hopefully it'll help ya out some. It can be REALLLLLY confusing!

Have a good one!
B

 

[Kyliegirl]

thanks snowman

the problem about having a skimmer well its easier to show you a pic of the setup so far

this hangs onto the back

the back part takes up the whole backside, it pumps water up the top, filters junk through the wool, its then drained through bio filters which you can see some spares on the left side, then drains to the far left back to the tank.

Technically, I really dnt have much space to place a hang on skimmer, and I did not get a sump as I dont have the room to put one. I wanted to place a skimmer in, but I dont have much room. ( you also must remember us aussies dont have the same products as you do, so it is harder to find a good skimmer when there is less reviews about aussie products)

I am also unsure if the pump is strong enough for corals, it has flow but if i put my hand on the other side of the tank i dont feel any pressure, but the water flow is visible.

I dont know why my ph is so low then, I make my own salt water, i use an ro/di unit, then add salt until the gravity is between 1.023 - 1.024.

the salt is seachem marine salt, anyone know if this is good? or should i buy a different salt..

 

[SnowManSnow]

I think Instant Ocean is about the best, but just my opinion.

It looks like you have some sort of "eclipse-like" system there. The thing is with LR and skimming that you dont need mechanical filtration like that. The VAST majority of ppl with reef tanks run them with just LR and a skimmer. If it were me, and it isn't, but if it were... I'd replace your HOT filter system with a good skimmer and be done with it.

As far as flow goes, I cant tell what powerhead you have in there are the penguin brand? I'm partial to MaxiJet powerheads 1 MaxiJet 1200 should create enough circulation for a 25g. Again, just my opinion.

On another side, it looks like you have a great start! Keep up the good work!!!!

B

 

[trido]

Looks like you are off to a good start. I have to ask. What time are you testing for ph? Mine runs from 8.0 in the morning to 8.6 in the evening. Im sure most would say thats alot. My live stock seems happy and I dont like to mess with stuff just because numbers aren't text book perfect.
Regarding your ammonia. If you want to keep as many hithhikers as possible. I believe the rule of thumb is to test daily, and do the 10-20% water change as you did before. Daily if necessary. Im sure your amm. was lower after you did the last change but just climbed back up do to more die off. This is sometimes thought to prolong the cycle process But when keeping all of those hitch hikers isnt it worth it?
As for filtration. I agree with snowmansnow. Ditch the filter and get a skimmer if possible. Alot of smaller tank keepers do use them (charcoal filters). But the also have to religiously do water changes weekly. I believe that with a skimmer you have a little more forgiveness in that department. I find that with my 30G my corals are happier when i change water wekkly but I can get away with bi-weekly if needed with no adverse effects.
For a 20-26 gallon tank you will probably need about 4-6 hungred gallons an hour of flow or 20-30 times turnover in your tank for happy corals. For fish only. Considerably less
If you're going to add more live rock. I would recomend doing it now so you can simply get the cycle process over with now and start enjpoying your tank all the sooner. If the rock you plan on addin later is cured you should be able to add a few lbs./kgs. atr a time with now problems. Its most likely easier now though as you can aquascape with out stressing out any corals or fish. So much easier with an empty tank.


Now for the disclaimer... I am a newb. I know far from very much. :lol:

Good luck

 

[jay24k]

Give the tank a good month after adding live rock. This will really help the tank establish before adding fish. I would add the new live rock and then wait till the cycle is complete. After ammonia is down, I would then do a 20% water change. Any hairy crabs you see I would banish to a sump if you have it or give it to your LFS. They probably were the ones who mangled your critters.

Is your live rock totally cured or shipped in newspaper? If shipped, I wouldn't even do a water change until ammonia is zero. If it is truely live as in, came out of someone's established tank or is shipped in water like TBS rock, I would do water changes to keep it below .5.

Don't sweat ph at all. Unless it is really low 7.6 or lower, just let it go it's natural course. However, you don't want huge swings either. You are mainly looking for stability in the tank.

As for salt, there is alot of salt on the market. For fish only, IO works great. It's a well proven salt. For reef, I would go with a higher calcium/alk content salt. I like Tropic Marin and I've heard good about reef crystals and oceanic.

As with anything and like others have stated, patience is the key and keep up with the water changes.

 

[Kyliegirl]

thanks for the responce.

The live rock I get is usually placed into an established tank when its shipped, the pet store usually stores all the rock in one tank with a few fish etc, the live rock itself is definately live as I have found many worms, bugs etc crawling out of holes in them, including a very, very long yellow thin worm which looked over 20 cm long. they give it to you with foam boxes and wet newspaper.

i test the ph in the morning, i havent done evening, but i have tested ammonia day and night lately, it is stable at .50 and hasnt gotten any higher, so I guess the bacteria is there, just not enough yet.

I dont know if a skimmer will fit onto the back of the tank. as it has a thick barrier around the tank, i cant even fit the t5 racks onto it, so it has to sit ontop of a pane of glass above the tank.

another concern is tank temp. atm it sits between 24-29.9 degrees. which is very worrying, the tank is in a room with computers, so the heat builds up sorta. I read that placing pc fans above the tank helps with cooling the tank, I have a few times placed our huge fan facing the water and the temp dropped 2-5 degrees.

the pump pushes 1000l i think. sorry i forget the brand, and i mispaced the box :?

many of the products you will mention wont exist in australia

the hairy crab was extremely tiny, about 5 mm in size, so I dont think it could do any damage. then again, i dont even think it has survived this ammonia spike. But i could be wrong.

My main concern is to get the tank cycled and going, so i guess I may have a few casualties but such is life.


on another note, I am planning to place a mandarin in this tank, and I have created a live rock rubble pile in the corner of the tank , there is a live rock coral which had a cage like shape so i added some loosened algae scrubber inside it and placed it in the corner, then piled rubble over it to make a pod culture zone. It will keep the mandarin out and have hopefully a successful breeding zone for the pods.

The rubble was placed pretty firmly together so they cant be knocked, but with additonal pressure from more live rock it should remain stable, to prevent any breakins and mass feeding.

 

[trido]

If you cant get a skimmer so be it. Simply watch the over feeding and make sure to keep up on water changes and filter maintanance.
As for your circulation 1000l=264g per hour. You should at least double that.
AS for your temp swings 24-29.9C=74-84F Those are huge swings. You should definately use that fan as part of your full time system and keep it as steady as possible.
Try to test your PH at night. Id bet you going to see is at 8.4 or so. No problems at all there. From what Ive rad in these forums. 8.0 in the morning is nothing to be worried about.

 

[Kyliegirl]

I am concerned about this white hairy algae like stuff growing on one of the rocks, in the last two days it has spread rather quickly, it seems very soft.

heres a pic, sorry for bad quality, but its all i can give, better than nothing

 

[trido]

Cant tell. Definately need a better pic. Sorry

 

[jay24k]

Yea unable to tell on the white. It could be sponge decaying or something else. I wouldn't be worried about it really.

On the temps, I'm a F type of guy

If the temps are pushing past 86, I'd worry. Last summer, I ran constantly 83 to 86 daily. This summer I won't be however I had zero issues and my corals believe it or not really growed extremely fast.

If you get a Ranco controller, you can have your fans come on when the tank hits a certain temp. I just have my fans come on with my lights in the morning and cut off. I bought two silverstone 105 cfm fans that aren't loud at all. It will drop the temp really good. I now run at 82.2 at the highest and occasionally if the house runs hot up to 83.

 

[Kyliegirl]

thanks.

I finally added more live rock, buying an aqua c remora skimmer.

since adding the live rock my ph has dropped to 7.2 and ammonia has jumped to 1.0. I did a 30% water change this morning to remove all the dead critters in the tank.

Any reason why my ph would have dropped?

I did add another pump in, so i now have a 1000 l/h and a 1514 l/h on opposite ends creating a whirlpool type flow in the tank, i thought the flow was meant to help maintain ph over 8. am i wrong?

i also fill my tank up with ro/di water mixed with seachem marine salt.

 

[SnowManSnow]

youll love the remora.

make sure to get it with the maxijet 1200 and not the rio. will do you a MUCH better job.

 

[Kyliegirl]

well.. the new live rock which was added must have had something bad, as the water has turned milky white, you cant see to the back because its so dense. Everything in the tank died.. thankfully i dont have fish yet..

I am planning to remove all the water, and scrube the rocks in buckets of salt water to remove the dead things and some of the algae off the rocks..

is this a good idea? or should i leave the rocks as is?

 

[nyx]

kylie before you do that i would suggest getting a skimmer ( i have a spare one in my garage you can borrow/have ) it aint pretty but it works its a hang on type so you can replace the filter as suggested with that. You can also put a bag of carbon in the skimmer this will help calm down the die off, it wont stop it but it will lessen the effects on your critters.

I would not scrub your live rock clean .. you will lose so much more life .. even after a month of a one kilo piece of lr i am seeing something new every day.

the addition of this skimmer would also help movement on the surface of the water which should help the rest of the parameters of your tank.

these tanks are lovely to look at but i have not yet seen one that does not need some form of modification done to them to make them a great tank.


Incidently where did you get this lr from ? i suspect i may have met you there on thursday ?

 

[Kyliegirl]

pet city in australia thats where i purchased the live rock.
yeah i did go in on thursday morning, bf went back in in the arvo for the rock. I am glad he got good pieces, he didnt know what i was looking for lol..


i alrady have a skimmer on the way, i posted in general about my current situation with the tank. mostly because i needed a fast responce.

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=85719

as i stated i removed the live rock, the smell was just off, it was the smell of rot and it was so bad i almost threw up from the smell. It got even worse when i pulled the rocks from the water.

I will just scrub out the dead things, and most of the dead corals etc on the rocks. I wont scrub them totally clean, just enogh so i dont lose all the good bits on it.

 

[jay24k]

How's the tank going?

Water turning milky white sounds like an ammonia overdose. When I first got into the hobby I had no clue of what to do beside what the LFS told me. It turned white and then brown and was nasty. Not to mention it stunk up the house.