Refugium All-In-One Systems???

[Jeff]

Looking to convert reef tank filtration to an all-in-one system (currently using sump/skimmer with live rock/sand). My probem is I have limited space (36 inches) under stand. I do not have enough space for a hang on type either

Was looking seriously at the AE Tech 24p system

http://www.superskimmer.com/48_Refugium.htm

I am new to the hobby and was wondering if you could recommend this refugium all-in-one system (or any other) with the space limitations noted above. AE Tech also recommends a sump buddy 40 skimmer (internal) from ETSS. Are these any good as well? Again, I am new to the hobby.

I have an 85 gallon tank with 75lbs of live rock and 60 lbs of live sand. I only have a few animals (Kole Tang, Black Sebae, cleaner & fire shrimp, Red Bubble Tip, Green Star Polyps, and various mushrooms.

Thanks again for your timely repsonse. Would really like to purchase something very soon.

 

[Anonymous]

If you already have a sump w/ skimmer under your tank all you need to do is section off part of it to make your refugium. Add some light if your going to do vegetation in there.

 

[Jeff]

I would but the sump that came with the tank is 18X13X15, and there is not much room with the skimmer (Top Fathom TF100A), which has a big footprint and pump. Also, I have two additional pumps (one for chiller & one for 2nd return). The main return is external quite one pump.

All of this equipment came with the tank. In fact, the LFS told me that the skimmer was not good at all and that I should upgrade.

 

[Anonymous]

Seriously, all you have to do is have a place for pods to grow and the sump will take care of that. All you have to do is give them a little room to grow, add a cheapo light if your going to add vegetation and devise a way to keep it from going into your pumps.

 

[Jeff]

I'm not really that handy but I will give it consideration. I still think I need a bigger sump though. In the interim, has anyone ever purchased an all-in-one system, and do they work?

Also, how do you get around the fact that water flow should be slower through the refugium, but you typically want greater flow through a sump to create circulation in the tank? I know this is probably a dumb question but seems both actions seem to be in opposite directions..

Thanks again for your responses. This is the first time I've posted to a forum and it is very helpful.

 

[mr_X]

you don't want greater flow through the sump to create circulation in the tank. you want slower flow through both the refugium and entire sump- you have your skimmer in sump, so you need that water to flow through slowly to be processed by it.

circulation in the main display is done via a closed loop, or powerheads...not by your return(s).

that looks like an interesting sump, but how exactly is it an all-in-one? all of what? it has a filter sock which is good, then a bunch of confetti looking stuff between the baffles, which i would remove.
then there's a small refugium area, and then a return area that you can just about squeeze a pump in.
where will your skimmer go?
i'd use a simple tank design. get the largest aquarium you can fit under your stand and partition it off the way you want/need it, for less than a third of that price.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

I have something like that now.. I got from Dr.FS years ago. Little sump, no fuge, cheap non-brand skimmer that doesn't skim NOTHING. That's what this skimmer you are talking about sounds like too.

This place is cheaper and you can substitute/customize the sump and skimmer. http://www.acrylicarts.eversites.co...6&catid=946&shopperid=24859&shop=itemlist.asp I'm gonna email these guys and see what credit they give for that built-in skimmer. They might end up selling $200 fuge/sumps here. Not too bad especially if you can customize one too. Maybe they'll make a deal on a skimmer too. I see they carry some Octopus skimmers. OR get the skimmer from elsewhere and have them make sure the sump will fit it.

I'm debating on whether to make my own from a tank myself. It's not that hard. The worst part about your scenario is having your sump down for 2-3 days till you get it setup, silicone dried, and water test new baffles. But it is doable. Bad thing about these all-in-ones is they aren't the size you want, the sump areas aren't sized what you want, they cost $100-$200 more than doing it yourself, IF skimmers come with it they are generally worthless. I guess it's sorta like buying or building your own pc in a way.

From what I've been reading you want a skimmer area in your sump that is as big as possible since you may upgrade skimmers and they all have different footprints.

You could do good with as little as a 8 gal fuge... maybe even 6" of your sump is all. Is your stand really only 36" wide inside total? That is a little on the small side. You need to figure out what's the max. size of a sump you can fit in there and get through your doors.. or in it from behind, whatever. You might want to also leave room for an ATO container for a a week or so of RO/DI water like 5-10 gal. Or go with the biggest sump you can fit. That sump you have might not accomodate any other 3rd party skimmer anyway.

 

[Jeff]

I appreciate everyone's comments. My tank size is a 36X18X30, so there is only a 36' stand to work with. There is about 26 inches between the doors and a skimmer can be no taller than 23 inches. I also have MH so I need a little space for ballasts, timers, & my external pump (although I could switch to internal). I guess I really don't need a fuge, was just trying to improve filtration since I was told my skimmer was of a lower quality....also the sump could be bigger and my only other filtration (besides LR/LS is the media in the overflow).

Should I just but a new skimmer and sump and call it a day. Again, would prefer to buy something since I don't have alot of time and I am not handy at all.

Sorry for the all-in-one reference, I guess it is just a sump with a partitioned area of fuge (as you implied mr_x)

I looked at the ecosystem on your link (scifi_3d_zoo) , but not sure if a quality skimmer would fit in the first partioned section. I was also looking at the ADHI brand refugium (see link below) and they say it would fit an ASM G1 or G1-X in the first section (not sure if these are good skimmers or not). They can also customize the length of the sump (from 30' to around 27' for about $30 extra. Here is the link....

http://www.aquamartonline.com/01551_1_4_1551.html

I know everyone probably thinks a DIY option if best (and more rewarding probably) but I am not handy so this really is not an option for me.

Any suggestions? What are my options? Should I add mechanical filtration (canister)? Long shot but anyone interested in building me a sump/fuge for a small fee? I live in Southern California.

 

[mr_X]

don't take what i said to be aggressive. i was just trying to make a point.
and...i'm not handy either. it's super easy, i promise you.

 

[mr_X]

btw..an ASM skimmer is a good one, however, that's an extra cost. so, you have $339.00 plus another $200.00 or so for the skimmer 8O

i would not add a cannister filter unless you plan on cleaning it a couple times a week.
maybe just purchase a better skimmer and call it a day? i'd still consider a tank with a couple baffles glued in though.
did you see my sump? i know it's large, but it's just a simple design everyone uses. it took me about 20 minutes to cut and glue in the baffles. just do a tiny version of that. you can get some acrylic from home depot and they will cut it for you, or glass even. :wink:

 

[Jeff]

Thanks X.

I checked out your link and it seems you are VERY HANDY. That is a nice system and you obvioulsy have a tremendous knowledge of this hobby. Again thank for the responses.

So If I just upgrade the skimmer, can you recommend one that is not too tall (due to 23' space limitation) and that has somewhat of a smaller footprint). I want a full reef with many fish/coral so I need something effective for that style of system.

Also, it sounds like I should explore getting a bigger sump. Anyone know of place to buy cheap (or even a used one would suffice). BTW, would you switch to an internal return pump to save space for a bigger sump? Or does an external pump outweight benefits of a bigger sump? I would be interested in lowering the heat that is transferred to the water thorugh the external (quite one)....Thanks

 

[mr_X]

thanks, but i'm not very handy at all....i just have a good imagination :wink:

i googled "short protein skimmer" and "height of protein skimmer" and came up with a couple choices-
precision marine bullet 1.
http://www.ultralifedirect.com/protein_skimmers.htm
i don't have any experience with those, but i'm sure you can find someone here that can help with that. they seem to be of the same design as the aqua-c EV series skimmers, which i hear aren't bad.

the ASM G1 is 19 inches tall. i use a G4X and i really like it. i've also owned an ASM G1X which i liked equally.

the Aqua-c EV120 is a nice skimmer.

i think the aqua medic turbofloater will work too...it will be tight though...i think you might have an inch to play with

as far as a full reef- you can accomplish this with any one of these skimmers.
a full reef with many fish....that's going to be tough. it all depends on the bio-load. you have to do some research and pick your fish very carefully with a tank that size.

the bigger the sump the better. the more total water volume you have, the easier your tank will be to maintain.
check the for sale sections in all the forums...you'll find something used and cheap. where are you located?

if you are contemplating using an external pump, i am all for that idea. you could probably bolt it to the stand wall and then it wouldn't take up any sump space.

and FYI, i don't have tremendous knowledge of this hobby. i'm still a newbie myself. :wink:

 

[Jeff]

Your knowledge seems so out of reach for a newbie newbie like myself. I definetely gneed to get some books to expand my knowledge.

I guess I can upgrade the skimmer and be done with it, unless someone else has a better suggestion for an out of the box solution. Maybe I just wait until I upgrade to a bigger tank/stand combo. I've reand the ASM G-1 is a good skimmer so that might be where I end up. And of course, I may explore the fuge build (if I have the patience for it).

If I could just ask a few more questions...

I seem to get alot of heat in the tank. I know the MH will do that but I've read the external pump will also create heat. Is there a good ext. pump out there that will create less heat transference in the water? I'm concerned about my electric bill in the summer when the chiller will be working overtime..

Also, the canopy that came with the tank has a fan inside but only on one side (which is weird to me). So I get very little water evaporation, but I don't think the fan is helping much unless I add a fan or two to the other side (which again is troubling for a non-handy guy).

And one last comment on filtration......beside the biological LR/LS & skimmer, I have media inside the overflow (which doesn't seem to do much since water does not flow directly over the media). That is why I suggested mechanical filtration earlier. So I guess my system as it stands now is enough to sustain a decent reef setup (soft & hard)?

BTW, I live in Manhattan Beach, CA (in case anyone is interested in selling a used sump or building a fuge for a fee). I will check out the sales section in the forum though. Thanks

 

[mr_X]

you mean INternal pumps, right? external don't put heat in the water. you have a submersible pump, correct? they all are pretty similar really. the thing is, motors create heat, and the internal pumps are cooled by the water. i don't think one is too much different than another. naturally, a larger pump will probably put out more heat than a smaller pump.

the canopy- does it have an open back? if so, that fan should be blowing air in and it would be exiting out the back. if it is a sealed canopy, then you'll need to make an exit hole somewhere.

do you have glass or plastic lids over the tank, between the lights and the water? if so, you could try removing them and see what happens. that will lead to more evaporation, but i'd rather have that, than a hot tank.

you could also put a fan over the sump. that would help as well.
that's odd that your chiller is not doing it's job. that should take care of the heat issue, especially in the winter!

yes, the live rock/sand and skimmer is enough, providing the amount of live rock is correct, and you have ample lighting, and ample circulation/flow in the display. how much live rock do you have in your tank?
btw- keep that media clean..i mean wash it out regularly. i had a cannister filter on my old tank for a short while....in a week i opened it and it smelled like a rotten halibut. now i simply use a filter sock at the end of the drain, which i change out every 3-4 days.


there are alot of reefers in california. check this forum's F/S, and also reef central and any local forums you have out there. you should find out if there is a local reef club for your area.
i thought reef clubs were kinda corny...but i've met some pretty good people in mine.

 

[Jeff]

I hate the information I get from my LFS. They told me the external pump creates the heat (which I thought was weird) so I was questioning whether to move to to an internal pump (which seemed odd at the time). The chiller is working fine but I sometimes wake up late at night and its freezing cold (relatively speaking in socal) and the chiller is kicked on so I thought to myself, wow, I can only imagine my bill in the summertime.

The canopy is open in the back so I guess I really don't have the need for fan on other side to expel heat. I do use acrylic over top so I can try and remove to reduce heat.

I have about 80lbs of LR & 60lbs of LS. I have two returns pumps from sump (main = external; 2nd return = internal). I also have two other internal pumps (one for skimmer/one for chiller). I have two Koralia 3's in my tank for circulation.

Changing media in overflow is a pain...I wish I just had a sump sock but for some reason the previous owner drilled a bulkhead into sump from the overlfow (never seen this before based on research), which is another reason why I would prefer a new sump). Ideally, I would prefer to just change out a sock and add Durso StandPipe in overlfow (which LFS told me would reduce noise & prevent overflow in sump if I forget to change media timely).

I will check out some local reef clubs as suggested. So many questions...so much research..I guess this is not a hobby that is plug and play...which I guess makes it a hobby!!!!

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Yea.. makes sense. If it's not an in-sump pump it won't transfer as much heat. An ext. takes up more stand space.

I have a thread going about making a fuge/sump http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=117092 and it is an easy concept but I've been researching it all for weeks/months and haven't made any decision yet.

I think you should yea... buy a new skimmer if you want.. otherwise get a fuge. Don't buy a whole new sump and no fuge.

I have about the same size tank as you and fans on my sump did no good. I have a temp. controller and it ran all day and didn't make a difference. I have 48" tank with dual HQI/Actinics so it gets hot. They shattered the glass I use to have on top of the water. Had to buy tempered glass. BUT... I ended up trying a chiller and sent it back. Too noisy. THEN.. a simple $20 4-fan unit across the top of the water dropped my tank from 86'F to 72'F over night. Scared the crap out of me. The box says ... 2-4'F. I had no idea that would happen. Fans work very well. Simple $50-$100 temp. controller turns it off and on.

That other SUMP link you gave... they're too expensive. That link I gave you will make one for you with a Octopus skimmer for the same price. The other one has no skimmer... or a worthless one.