pH and alkalinity, calc parameter suggestions

[Capslock]

Hello,

My latest round of tests came back with:
nitrite/nitrate/ammonia - 0
pH - 8.0
alkalinity - 3mq/l

I have read and read and the general consensus on various sites parameter charts as well as a few books puts those values under acceptable levels but they are on the low end of acceptance.

I do not have any corals,anemones,sponges,etc yet so I do not need to worry about this that terribly yet but I need a some clarification.

Would I expect to see these values drop once new corals etc. are added to my tank minus any drop due to a cycle?

Do these values eventually crawl back to normal? I do not want to add any buffers yet as I see a real danger in having a buffer

Also: I do not have my phosphate / calcium tests in yet but they should be coming in at the end of this week. What I would like to know ahead of time is; if corals need calcium for..calcification..then I would assume those levels need to be maintained by calcium additives? I do not see any reason RO water would rebuild calcium levels on its own but I could be wrong.

Could I have some clarification? If I definately need calcium additives does anyone have a prefered brand and why?

 

[metalac]

Those values will not increase by themselves. The corals will make them go down since corals will start using calcium as soon as they're put in. A lot of people maintain good numbers by doing frequent water changes with good quality salt (at least once a week) or by using a calcium reactor or adding kalkwasser. I personally add kalkwasser and that's keeping my numbers in check, it's easy and inexpensive.

 

[Capslock]

metalac thanks for the info.

I have been doing a bit of reading and have found the process of adding kalkwasser a bit troublesome.

I have a few questions:

Right now, I add R/O water twice a day, about 4 - 5 cups worth each time, sometimes up to 10 cups (about 1/2 gallon per day). I just use a standard kitchen 4-cup measuring cup to pour the water in the sump each time, so RO does not currently enter via. drip method.
I plan on automating this through DIY auto top-off. I also intend the auto top off to mimic what I do, fill the sump twice a day at about the same rate.

At the moment I have a 5 gallon bucket i use to house the RO water until needed.

Can I:
-Simply add the kalkwasser every 5 gallons and just dump the R/O - kalk water in as I usually do
-put kalk in on a different schedule mixed immidiately then dumped in? again, about 4 - 5 cups worth twice a day

-set up an entirely different system?

 

[Mthompson]

Your questions are also dependent on what you are planning on keeping in this tank. At the very least, if you want to have coraline grow you will need to be doing water changes fairly frequently.

You are correct in that RO water does not add Ca to the tank. In fact, ideally RO adds nothing but pure H2O. By using kalkwasser or limewater you are adding Ca and buffering the water(alkalinity) of the system as a balanced form. More about this can be explained by reading various articles about the interactions of Ca and alkalinity levels. I found this fairly easy to understand - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php) The article also helps explain how to properly dose limewater for best results.

You should not just dump all the limewater in the sump as you do with the RO water (I would not even dump the RO in that fast). The big problem with adding limewater that fast is the pH swing that could occur, depending on the volume of the system and the amount being added. As is the case with most supplements and water changes, it is best to add it slowly over a long enough time frame as to not impart shock on the inhabitants as they acclimate to the new parameters.

I would design a system if possible, that incorporates three 5-gallon buckets (one fresh RO, one mixed limewater, and one mixed saltwater) and keep these topped off accordingly. Next I would design a drip system that holds a bit more than the amount of water that evaporates every other day or so. Using this drip system, you can add either fresh RO or limewater (depending on the demands of the aquarium) at a slow enough rate that all the parameters and the water level in the return compartment of the sump essentially remain constant. The mixed saltwater is also then at hand for use in water changes.

I use this type of system for my 120gal utilizing larger trash cans for the reservoirs. It work well, and is not complicated.

 

[metalac]

well my kalkwasser system is pretty simple. Just a jug with the dripper valve on it so that kalkwasser drips into the sump. This is crucial since if you dump kalk in too fast you might stress things. I will redesign my dripper and make it out of PVC since that will be a bit more sturdy.

 

[Mthompson]

Same thing with my DIY dripper. Jugs connected to tubing through a flow regulator, and into the flow portion over the last baffles (helps mix it instantly). I use RO/DI mostly, but do limewater about once a week depending on water parameters.

Capslock - I can take some pics and explain it in more detail if you need

 

[Capslock]

The more detail the better, I welcome as much as possible.

More particularly, I do not understand your last statement. You only add kalk once per week?

So you add that with a bit of ro that you have laying around with correct proportions then put it into the baffles, putting it into the baffles does make sense.

how much do you put in once per week? I assume this has a direct correlation to the amount of life you have in the tank that needs the calcium.

 

[metalac]

speaking of calcium, can i add iodide into kalkwasser? I have some xenia and will get mushrooms soon, i heard they do a lot better with some iodide added.

 

[Mthompson]

Instead of using RO/DI in the dripper, once a week I use limewater. My tank usually evaporates about 5-8 gallons of water a week, and my dripper holds 2.5 gallons. At a drip rate of about 1 drip/3 seconds, the 2.5 gallons lasts for about 2 days. In other words, I drip 2.5 gallons of limewater per week and ~2.5-5 gallons of RO/DI water per week. This schedule maintains MY volume at the same level, along with all the other parameters (salinity, pH, Ca, Alkalinity).

The Ca and Alk levels are used throughout the day by coraline algae, calcareous algae (helimeda and mermaid's fans), and other calcium sinks (fish and invertebrates). Thus, I use the limewater to replenish the levels of Ca and Alk (which also keeps the pH more constant, but for more complex chemistry reasons). Currently my demand for Ca and Alk is low, but if this increases, my need to drip limewater also increases (could mean that all top-off in limewater).

I use the ingredient proportions highlighted in the article I mentioned above (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php) for making my limewater. Here is my procedure using a one gallon jug (with screw on lid):

1 - fill gallon jug about half way with RO/DI
2 - add 45mL of distilled white vinegar
3 - fill jug almost to top with RO/DI (leave room for lime powder)
4 - shake to mix vinegar and RO/DI completely
5 - add 6 teaspoons of pickling lime (I use Ms. Wages)
6 - Shake vigorously for a minute or two to dissolve lime
7 - shake vigorously after letting sit for one hour to dissolve lime further (maybe? but it is my habit)
8 - pour into the limewater reservoir and let sit for a day or so before use

This sounds pretty intensive, but I assure you that it takes all of about 10 minutes (using several gallon jugs) to make all the limewater I need for one month. The reservoir I store limewater in holds more than enough limewater for a month of use right now, so if I get busy I have extra on hand. The reservoir also helps precipitate to be removed by having the spigot about 1 inch above the bottom, so that any contaminants are not put into the tank.

The article also speaks briefly of adding other supplements with limewater, and I agree that it probably is not very effective. Iodine is dosed in small enough quantities that it will not affect water quality. If you are worried, just add half-a-day's worth in the morning and the other half at night at night. Again adding to a high flow area in the sump is best for immediate dispersion. Iodide is good for more than just corals, decapods need it for proper molting especially, and there are others who do better when it is added.

Just keep on reading and asking questions. More importantly look at what you have, where you want to go, and plan accordingly. Hope this all helps, and I will try to get pics for you tomorrow.

 

[mr_X]

you have a 46 bowfront. you can add a simple 2 part additive. B-ionic or something like that. i don't think you need a steady kalk drip right now. not for a long while actually.

 

[Capslock]

MR_X,

taking a quick look at this bi-ionic additive let me try to understand this.

I can mix this sucker in to my current reservoir of RO water and then just use as necessary - particularly use when the water needs to be replenished in the tank; do I understand this correctly?

Now this sucker has calc and other additives that are used in my tank. It looks to me as if this additive covers supplementing everything that gets low in my tank.

 

[mr_X]

i think you mix as needed. i don't know if you'll be adding b-ionic every time you top off, but i believe it to be alot less complicated than a kalk drip, and for your size tank, i think it's all you'll need for a long while.

yes, it's more than calcium.

 

[mr_X]

-as with any additive, be it b-ionic, kalkwasser, or turbo calk....make sure you are well aware of your water parameters. don't just add stuff because "i haven't added anything in a while". make sure you actually need it. overdosing additives can be worse than not adding them.

 

[Capslock]

I have been using the b-ionic as Mr_X has suggested since the end of November. I started adding the 2 part b-ionic once per week during my weekly scheduled tests. The levels have been between 340 - 400 with a steady alk at 3.0 and pH around 8.1.

As of 1/11 I decided to use the b-ionic per the instructions with the hope of raising the calcium to above 400. The instructions call for adding )per my tanks specs) 12ml of alk and calcium buffer every 24 hours until a satisfied level is in place.

My levels went 360 - 340 - 340 - 400 - 320. The 320 was after a day of rest from testing and dosing, so today.
Alk went like this: 2.5 - 2.5 - 3.5 - 3 - 3.5
pH was 8.1 - 8.0 - 8.1 - 8.2 - 8.3

My question is, why has the calcium dropped so dramatically?

I am noticing that my candy cane coral appears on its top to be a little lighter in color than before, unless I am remembering wrong. A few days ago, mid-way through the test days the water was cloudy a bit, though I might attribute that to mixing the sand around; still, it shouldn't take more than 24 hours for the sand to settle, and the cloudiness lasted longer then that.

My phosphates today are finally at .3, it has slowly been declining since 12/5 but before that was at 1.0 for the longest time.

 

[mr_X]

hmm..i have never used b-ionic, but i know alot of people who do, and have no trouble with it at all.
i don't have an answer for your issue, but i'd just like to tell you again, that it is a widely used and trusted product.

i rely on waterchanges for the most part, so i can't comment on your issue.
i don't think people use kalk to raise their Ca, but more so, to keep the levels constant. you need something to raise Ca and Alk. a 2 part additive is what you should use, if not a Ca reactor. this is what i was told, by more than a handful of reef keepers.
i'm sure someone will be along to discredit my opinion, but they aren't jumping to help you, so i figure'd i'd throw something at ya. :wink:

 

[ChrisRD]

Sounds like your Ca test kit results are not accurate.

Personally I would try a better kit (Salifert seems reasonably accurate IME) and/or take a sample to your LFS for testing if that's an option...