• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

Are you associated with a MAC certified entity?

  • Yes, directly; I am certified!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, indirectly; I work for a certified entity.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Plan to be certified.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Do not plan to ever be certified.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Ad van Tage

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Is anyone on this forum actually associated with a MAC certified entity?

Given all the back and forth about MAC and certification...
would it not be nice to have an idea, if anyone on this here
"Industry Behind the Hobby" is in fact MAC certified,
or working with of for an entity that is...


In such cases I would dearly like to hear about their particular experience.
 

dizzy

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Dear Advantage,
It is highly unlikely you will see any of the MAC certified dealers posting here. To do so would open yourself up for questions. The whole MAC certification issue has put these good people in a very ackward position. Asking these people to participate here, is a bit like asking one police officer to testify against another.

One of the first MAC certified retailers told the AMDA BOD that AMDA was responsible for hurting the MAC. It is my personal belief that the dealers who joined the MAC and provided them cover, even when the MAC wasn't being honest, are much more resonsible for hurting the MAC. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but IMO MAC has failed to win the confidence and trust of this industry. When looking to point the blame for that, be sure to save a little for those "pioneers".
 

clarionreef

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Associated? I am.
2 of the three certifed exporters in Manila I have dealing with.
They are the small ones...[with even smaller certified inventories] and they are used to dress up the process so that the BIG one can appear to be more bonafide. The big one is of course the head of the exporters association...That one [ AMONG MANY OTHERS] ships to the big two MAC certifed importers in the US. Thats it. The totality of the achievement to date.

The vice president of the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Assn. refuses to join MAC so far as do the remaining 30 exporters.
In Indonesia its a solid 100% non MAC joiners. But hey, Its only been YEARS in the making so whats could you expect in so short a time? They've been too busy to piddle with anything as trivial as the S.E. Asian fish supply that runs the entire industry....
Did anyone think it was only the majority of contributors of RDO that had serious issues with this group?
Steve
 

MaryHM

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Did anyone think it was only the majority of contributors of RDO that had serious issues with this group?

Bingo, Steve!! That's what a lot of people that read/participate in this forum do think. They think that's its just our tiny little faction of "loonies" that has a problem and the rest of the industry is totally online and inline with what MAC is offering. That is what is truly a shame. That many, many other industry professionals either talk pro-MAC publicly and ridicule them behind their backs, or just don't have the time/access/inclination to go public with their thoughts. Here's a clue folks- MAC certification has been available for over 2 years now. How come such a short list?????????[/list]
 
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Anonymous

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The vice president of the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Assn. refuses to join MAC so far as do the remaining 30 exporters.
In Indonesia its a solid 100% non MAC joiners.

So all of the cyanide fishermen in the Phillipines and Indonesia are refusing to join MAC because they aren't strict enough and people can cheat the system?
 

Ad van Tage

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cortez marine":2yuh26hu said:
Associated? I am. ...............
Steve

Sorry Steve [et al], I ment "associated with" as in "working for" , "investor in" , "member of co-op", "subcontractor for", ...
In other woids direct personal interest in the MAC certified operation...

Not as in "doing business with"... or "regulatory agency, brushing up against"


I apologize for leaving the "associated with" so wide open.

But again, let's leave it at a direct personal connection < where a return on money ,
or pay for labour/services , rather than a business connection...

Hope this helps!
 

clarionreef

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Rover,
The exporters who don't want to deal with MAC have their own reasons. The refusal of this huge majority not taking it seriously insure that the divers as a whole will not either. The reasons they hold MAC in lower regard then reported are not things you hear over here...We are so far removed from their arena and they have years of this stuff behind them.
Cheating the system? They don't call it that. They call it just ...the system.
They will bend in the wind when they must. And ignore you the rest of the time. Its pure commerce and nothing else to them. All this "save the coral reef stuff" is alien to their mindset and unless made clear and immediately relevant in this weeks sales picture...will be ignored.
The divers are spread out in a thousand villages. Most have not seen the nets, the hype, the training...nothing. This issue is run in more comfortable areas for urban people....closer to the cities, hotels, conventions, restaurants, bars etc.
No matter what has happened so far...few divers feel it . Their lives are untouched by it. In other words, ignoring the field in the move to save coral reefs and make the trade sustainable also makes the field ignore you.
The reefs do not know what we've done in their name lately. They haven't seen much activity.
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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Again my aplogies for not being more clear. I was referring to the "The vice president of the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Assn. refuses to join MAC so far as do the remaining 30 exporters". I'm assuming that these guys aren't "spread out in a thousand villages" but are "in more comfortable areas for urban people....closer to the cities, hotels, conventions, restaurants, bars etc.". I don't necessarily see their refusal to hop on board with MAC as being a slight on MAC. These are the guys we are trying to reform right? Do we really expect them to jump for joy when an orginization comes in to make them do things the right way?
 

clarionreef

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Glen,
These 30 exporters represent the population of collectors as they comprise the industry. There is no market beyond them. They are the cyanide trade and the fish trade all duly liscensed to export by the Bureau of Fisheries.
After years of going round and around with MAC, they have made their opinions clear. In a particularly heated meeting in January of last year, the Vice pres Charley Ang of Aqua Integrated Marine Products really made himself loud and clear as he impugned the integrity of the MAC leadership in front of everyone.
The pres can do little with that group now so she herself makes the best of it and ships out the few certified fishes that there are, [ along with the other 98% it takes to run a business] to the MAC movement in the US.
After the years, the P.R., the cost and the effort, to have this as the majority achievement....Well it almost seems as though they're in business together. a PRODUCT AQUISITION FIRM as it were that keeps it flowing to those who pay and play.
Steve
So much for the SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPERATIVES. If its business...why not just go into business like the schemes investigated by the Packard peoples consultant group, the CCIF?
The use of Filipino divers in Tonga, Vanuatu, Palau, Saudi and Belize to teach and do the work is business...and called as such.
Business is fine as long as it is clear. To employ NGOs toward corporate purposes however smacks of something that bears closer scrutiny.
 
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Anonymous

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Rover, I think a better question is, why did the president of the PTFEA join in the first place. The PTFEA made a joint statement years ago that there is no cyanide problem, its been solved. OK. So why she hold up useless white nylon netting as what she supplies to her divers in a picture taken by John B.? Her divers must hate her *if* they're using that crap. I can name only 2 uses for that netting, in the facility itself as scoop nets (taking fish out of trays) or scooping up stunned fish (cyanide). Oh, wait, 3 uses, scooping baitfish or food fish out of pens. Had Lolita been sincer about reform, she would have held up mono netting as it's the best tool for the job and the most sought after by the divers. Catching MO's with white netting is like trying to hide in the middle of an open room. It only can happen if evey one looking at you is blind.
 
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Anonymous

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Blind like those who she (Lolita) thinks are viewing the token netting photo.
 
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Anonymous

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Still confused. You guys claim that MAC is going to "greenwash" the industry. ie Make it look like all of the problems have been solved without actually doing anything. Seems like the guys in the Phillipines would be all over that. What are there reasons for not jumping on board? Seems to be a contradiction between what you are claiming MAC will do and what they think MAC will do. If it really were just a matter of signing up for MAC and it's business as usual but now **with certification**, why wouldn't those guys be all over it? But if it were going to call for a fundamental change in how they do things, I can see why they would be less than enthused.

They are the cyanide trade and the fish trade all duly liscensed to export by the Bureau of Fisheries.
After years of going round and around with MAC, they have made their opinions clear. In a particularly heated meeting in January of last year, the Vice pres Charley Ang of Aqua Integrated Marine Products really made himself loud and clear as he impugned the integrity of the MAC leadership in front of everyone.
The pres can do little with that group now so she herself makes the best of it and ships out the few certified fishes that there are, [ along with the other 98% it takes to run a business] to the MAC movement in the US.

Could you add in a few of the details here? I don't really know what you are saying.
What are their opinions?
Why is Charley Ang's opinion important?
Does he have more or less integrity than the guys running MAC to where his disapproval means anything?
Why can't "the pres" "do anything with that group"?
 
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Anonymous

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But if it were going to call for a fundamental change in how they do things

Writting your own standards is a fundamental change in how they do things? Hmm. So wait, they don't even want to pay a little fee for certification and write their own standards? Being MAC certified is such a business builder, why aren't they joining up in masses?

They can still sell cyanide fish all day long Rover, they just can't call them as MAC fish. Same facility, seperate tanks? So hows that change anything they're doing now, other then loading themselves up with paperwork. A MAC fish won't fetch them a higher price, in fact, it'll just cost them more money to purchase and WAY more in paperwork. So I ask you, what does MAC have to offer them, other then extra costs and paperwork?

Certifing an exporter who mixes fish is what is known as "green wash". It impies that the exporter isn't mixing fish at their facility. It impies they're clean, when in fact they can still buy, sell and trade in the cyanide caught MO's. It impies alls cool and lowers the alert level.

Dirty exporters see no need to dish out money to continue to do what they're doing anyways. Clean ones see no need as MAC is all ready saying mixed fish are cool. So who needs MAC? Well, retailers, as a tool for advertising they're a better store then the rest whom aren't certified. What makes them better? They do more paperwork? They sell a few token clean fish? They still can mix and contribute to the cyanide problem WHILE sasying to their consumer, we're clean. You really think a LFS employee won't fudge and sell a non MAC as MAC to please his customer who is looking for the elusive MAC fish?

My problem is while being a vehicle for reform, they're also a vehicle for business as usual fot the dirty exporters. Geez, they can sell all the dirty fish they want, as long as the also do the MAC ones, they're a "certifiably clean source".
 

clarionreef

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Rover,
That group is not exactly like the Atlanta Chamber of Commerce.
They are in fact the drug dealers and financiers of said drugs that kill the corals that everyone says they want to save... and the crux of this very issue. If it wasn't for that, there would be less issue.

They like the inactivity of late and have their 'token' hand in thru the "official" support of their organization. On paper THEY ARE supporting MAC in the way many do...not thru belief, but because its an added, painless get out of jail free card in case something ever happens. They do not however, as businessmen want to actually DO anything, especially the hated paperwork mandated if you really take it seriously.
These guys had their mindsets and ethics forged in the fires of Mt. Doom in Mordor. They went thru 20 years of the Marcos regime and had to operate and thrive in the most corrupt fishery bureaucracy in Asia. Do not underestimate their ability to mimick anything they want to be. They are masters at it.
Now, here comes 'democracy' with a little D and they have to gladhand the visiting Yanks, take em to dinner and send em home happy. Then they get back to business. A business that few of you could ever support if you knew how it was really run.
They will take it only as far as they are forced to....if not forced to do something then they will just 'shine it on', play for time and generally smile til you leave. They don't take a signed 'commitment to get certified' for anything significant. If they did they would have gotten certified already. Their pres did. Thats enough for them They're covered.
Steve
 

clarionreef

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And Indo MAC?
Joko Purwanto The chairman of the Indonesian Exporters Assn. is on the MAC Board of Directors . Would you not think that at least he would be certified...even if no one else in Indonesia will be?

Not even their own board members get certified?

Indo has surpassed the Philippines in cyanide tonnage used in ornamental fishing now and has burned out one region after another. If there is not an emergency there and a clear and present danger ...then where is there?

Nah folks. This is not an aquarium reform organization if it doesn't get to work and reform something, somewhere, sometime. But then again....they're busy we've heard. If it doesn't then what exactly is it here to do?
Steve
 

Ad van Tage

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cortez marine":1au9u9pj said:
.................
Not even their own board members get certified?

Steve

That is something that has puzzled me...

Who exactly are the folks who are certified;
and by the way, how many WERE certified, and no longer are?
[ For I have been getting bounces on e-msgs sent to e-mail addresses
that are advertised on the MAC website. ]


Btw. Still no answers from the MAC [ on further e-mail queries! ]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
 

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