Submarine

Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
After reading your thread where everyone pretty much kicked your a-- instead of offering constructive advice, let me tell you what I would do in your situation. Just so you know I have had salt water fish and reef tanks since 1991, not to say I didn't kill everything at first. I did. The tech and our knowledge back then sucked. In the last 3 to 4 yrs the tech and knowledge has really made some huge leaps and if you have access to a knowledgeable lfs you can really start off right these days.

1. You don't need to tell anyone here this but it is critical. Did you decide to stock this much on your own and disregard your lfs's advice, or did your lfs say it is ok to stock a new tank the way you have?
If you did it yourself, well live and learn and lets move on, it is done. Some people on this board think that if you kill these creatures, you should die too. They are going to die anyway people. So lighten up.
If your lfs said it was ok, go to their store, call them Fing Aholes to their face and never go back. He screwed you like I and some other people I know were screwed just so they can make a buck. Do google searches for reef boards and surf them. You will get invaluable knowledge just from reading them.

2.Get a heater.
you said you temp fluctuated about 5 deg a day. This is not good. Temp fluctuation in the ocean is less than 1 deg a day, on average. Your fish are being stressed and weakend by this.

3.Get a protein skimmer.
This will oxygenate your tank, and get rid of dissolved organics. Your live rock and sand are not mature enough to handle the bioload you have on them. You said your ammonia is nonexistent but do you check every day? With the die offs, mucus production by your corals, and no skimmer you could be having spikes that are burning your fish's gills and killing them. Bottom line is you need the skimmer while you rock and live sand develop. Some have skimmerless tanks but that is usually after some time has passed with a skimmer, and they are very knowledgeable people. No offence meant but at this point you are not.

4.Get phytoplankon supplements for your corals.
Your corals only get 60%-70% of their food from photosynthesis. The rest comes from feeding just like any other animal. They are animals, they have some plants in them but they need to eat. If they do not eat they will starve, just like you and me. Because they have plants in them it takes them a long time to starve to death, but they will.I use some stuff called bioplankton. Go to liquidlifeusa.com and get some. It has all three sizes of phyto, the other popluar brands are cutting out one of the sizes so IMHO this one is the best. My corals look pumped up when i have this stuff in the water.

5.Get a live sand starter kit.
Do a search and you will find the companies that sell these. It will help your sand mature faster and be able to handle more bioload. The phytoplankon will also feed these creatures, which is another reason to get the phyto.

6.Buy bigger pumps.
Your tank water needs to be turned over at least 20 times an hour. Preferably 30 times.
Your flow is very, very inadequate. For your 120 you need 3600 gallons per hour worth of pumps. I know this sounds like alot but it is only a fraction of what the flow over a reef in the wild is.

7.Feed once a day.
Two to three times is too much. Your fish will eat 10 times a day if you feed them that much. Doesn't mean they need it. Feed them what they can eat in 5 min. Thats it. If you want to feed twice a day feed what they can eat in 2 min each time. You get the idea. For your tangs and other grazers get some seaweed selects sheets and a clip to put it in. They are sheets of seaweed the grazers can munch on all day. Give them enough to last 6 or 7 hrs. I have fed once a day for 10 yrs and my fish are FAT. If you get pygmy angels there is a food for them, get that too. It has trace amounts of things they need. Flake is ok but honestly get rid of it. Get some brine shrimp plus or some similar smorgasborg type frozen food. IMO the flake is not varied enough. Plus with the frozen you get trace elements your corals need.

8.Stop all the suplements except for calcium.
some of the latest research is leaning toward iodine as harmful rather than beneficial. The frozen food has enough of this TRACE element in it. Plus water changes replace many of these other elements. If you need to add more calcium to get it up to 350 to 400, do it. your corals will thank you.

I know this is long and probably comes off as kind of preachy, but this is what I would do if I was dropped into your situation. You may be doing some of it, if so cool. If not do it. I don't think you have anyone around you giving you very good adivce based on what you have done since you got your tank.
When I was having trouble in the beginning all my lfs wanted to do was sell me livestock to replace what died, and sell me supplements. It was all BS. He was fing me all the way. And he is family! With the knowledge to be had for free on the web you will know a hell of a lot real quick.
I've gasbaged enough, hope this helps

Kevin
 

BradB

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Finally! somebody posted a new thread, and gives specific reasons, followed by a logical explanation!

1A. Nobody ever suggested the tank was overstocked before, and I still don't really believe it is. If I tried to keep 3 small fish in a 20 gallon that would be understocked - but 18 small fish in a 120 sounds worse. Clown gobies and green chromis are zilch on the bioload and agression, and Anthias aren't much more. The only other fish present is a lawnmower blenny.

1B. Why is everyone so mad at my LFS? - they suggested I stock slower, especially at first. Except the most recent 4 deaths (which were 'hard to keep' fish), almost all the dead fish were severly mutilated - and no injuries at all since the damsel went. My LFS also refunded me for many of the fish, as they could find nothing wrong with my setup or water. Several workers have many years of success in this hobby, and I consider the advice I got from them far better than most other sources. If I paid them hourly + supplier cost of fish, I'd have spent far more than I did.

2) I have one, and being the middle of July I assumed this was irrelavant. I can control the max and min temp of the tank perfectly, by adjusting the heater and room air conditioning. I used to keep 78 constantly, but changed this becuase I thought the fluctuations were more nautral. I will look into this more, everyone has a wildly different opinion (some people like 85, some like 70, some constant day and night, some fluctuate 15 degrees).

3. I have a EV-90, which did a heck of job when I was curing the live rock, but I am pulling thin skimmate now and not very much.

4. My corals look pumped up already, but I will consider live phyto. I doubt it will do much for fish though.

5. I added a live sand starter kit too. I have very good microfauna diversity and population, what affect this has on tankmates, I don't know.

6. More flow is worth considering, but a standard All Glass 120 cannot handle anywhere close to 3600 gph. Do you really have this much flow in your tank(s)? Again, this seems more benifit to coral than to fish. All the 'high flow' (Acropora, etc) corals are at the top and near the returns. I plan to do much more LPS than SPS in the future (I avoided most LPS, especially early on, since they grow slow, are taken from the wild, and also more expensive, but they are my favorite).

7. I feed mysis and a few different flake types, and add different frozen/fresh for variety, and sometimes selecon. I thought most people said frozen shrimp are lower in nutrition than flake? I realize I don't need to feed this much, but anthias appreciate it (especially more frequent feeding - even if I feed the same amount per day), and nitrate/nitrate/amonia aren't present in testable amounts. I'd say the fatter fish look healthier than the thinner ones.

8a. Many people with more successful tanks add much more adatives, and do far less water changes (I haven't been consistant, but probably averaged 25% every 2 weeks). Iodine poisoning is not likely in my case(actually, I just started with Iodine 2 weeks ago). If I don't see an improvement in either animals or chemistry I will stop, but plan to get a good Iodine test kit anyway (once I slow down on water changes, and things are more consistant, I can calculate how much iodine I need to add (if any) to get natural levels over a long period of time - and can test every so often to be sure. Same for Strontium, Mangesium and any other minor water parameters I am convinced make a difference).

8b. If you know a good way to quickly raise calcium by 200 ppm in a 120 gallon tank without seriously shocking everything, please let me know ASAP! Water changes don't help longterm. I douse 1 gallon of kalkwasser per day, so either it is being used, or precipatating out (corraline growth indicates it really is used). I am not about to dump a few dozen bottles of B-Ionic in everyday to see what happens.
 

Emperator

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
After reading your thread where everyone pretty much kicked your a-- instead of offering constructive advice

Excuse me Submarine but I thought plenty of people gave BradB good, if not, great advice in the previous thread. Did you personally read through both pages of the previous thread?

People mentioned:

1. stop adding more livestock until Brad figures out what is the main cause of the fish deaths/disapperances

2. research intended livestock extensively prior to purchase

3. increase water circulation

4. regulate the temp swing

5. let the tank mature before adding anymore livestock

6. provide nutritious foods to the livestock

7. read, read, read

8. much more advice, but this is all i remember off the top of my head.

father submarine, are you saying the above advice is all BS? man, i would hate to see how your tank looks, me thinks it time you stepped off the lectern.
icon_mad.gif


[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Emperator ]
 

Green Mariner

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
BradB some advice(instead of bs)

Submarine, did you read the post? I just went back through and re-read it and it is full of very helpful advice by very experienced reefers. To say that thread was all "BS" is a slap in the face to everyone who took the time to post to that thread offering good sound advice. It would be a real shame if no one answered any of Brads posts in the future.
crying.gif
BradB turned his nose up at every piece of advice offered, saying "thats not my problem" and blasting those who took the time to offer advice. Well if Brad knows whats not his problem then he should surely knows what the problem is.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Some people on this board think that if you kill these creatures, you should die too.
Not true, these people want to educate people, instead of eradicate reefs, but I guess submarine in on the Geo. Dubya ecology plan.

Anyone who asks for advice, and then refuses to accept any advice that does not fall in line with wants to hear, will never be successful in reefkeeping.

BradB, If you cannot accept that people just want to help by offering up their knowledege then you my friend are the one with a problem.

BTW, this is not a flame, this is pure observation!!

BTW, Submarine, looks to me like you just re-typed most of the advice offered in Brads other thread!

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Green Mariner ]
 

fudge1

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Submarine:
<STRONG> They are going to die anyway people. So lighten up.

Kevin</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dont happen to work at Petcetera,do you?
icon_rolleyes.gif
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top