Need info on wholesale fish prices

[marbio]

Hi,

I am a marine bio student and I am looking for sources to use in a final paper for one of my classes. I am writing about the wholesale aquarium industry and I've visited reefs.org in the past when looking up info for my own tank, and I remembered there being an industry forum here. I was hoping some of you could help me out. I moslty need information on pricing for some of the more popular wholesale fish. I'm particularly interested in seahorses, pipefish, and dragonets. I don't know if any of you will be willing to share any of this information with me but it is worth a shot. Feel free to PM or email if you don't want to share the information publicaly.

Some examples of what I need to know is how much does a wild caught seahorse cost versus a captive bred seahorse? Does it depend on the species or demand or what? How long are fish generally kept at a wholesaler before they are shipped off to a store? From what I've read most pipefish and dragonets are wild caught so does that make them cheaper or more expensive for a wholesaler?

I am open to any other suggestions for what I should be asking because I really don't know much about the wholesale industry but I find it very fascinating. Thank you all for your time and I hope to hear from you!

 

[marbio]

over 40 people have looked at this but no one can help me out? Apparently this isn't the best place to post this so maybe someone can tell me where I should look to find this info I need for my assignment? Just point me in the right direction if you can. Thanks!

 

[Anonymous]

Wild caught vs. captive bred? So you want the landed cost of each? Since wilds are CITES article II IIRC, so it kinda puts them on a different level then captives IMO. Typically, captives cost more across the board, no matter what species.

Wild pipes and dragonets, yup, cheaper from the wild. in fact, if you have a source for captive either, pony up the info, the world would love captive bred dragonets

Length of time held depends on how fast said animal sells, and the particular wholesalers protocols. Some would ship out the day it landed, others have more rigorous acclimation protocols.

FWIW< this thread recieved 40 views, not 40 people. You count as a view Every refresh counts as a view, etc.

 

[JennM]

I viewed, but I'm one of those paranoid-types that doesn't disclose my wholesale costs. Call it a "trade secret", call it paranoia, call it whatever.

While I'm sure the initial poster is quite honest in his intentions, I've seen too many people try to gain info on wholesale pricing, when they have another agenda - so I just don't disclose it, period. No offence intended to the person asking.

On a side note, it has been interesting when people *do* find out wholesale pricing, how they often mistakenly believe that their LFS is ripping them off... of course that wholesale price list doesn't count box charges, air freight, upkeep....

No intention to hijack the thread - just acknowledging the post, but I respectfully decline to provide the info requested. Perhaps someone else will.

Jenn

 

[marbio]

Gresham,

I'm looking for the cost that a wholesaler pays for a captive bred vs a wild caught, seahorse for example. I don't expect any one to give this up but I said that I was looking for some sort of source for this information. Is there some sort of log or general paper that would disclose anything like this? Are you a fish wholesaler Gresham?

Can anyone give me a basic statement such as a wholesaler will sell X fish for this and generally a buyer will double that price when they pass it on to the hobbiest?

Jenn,

Thanks for your honesty. I completely understand your position and I respect your decision not to share anything.

 

[Anonymous]

I can provide some answers, but I do NOT want to piss Jenn off...especially since I'm now within striking distance of her patented haymaker.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

I no longer work full time in MO wholesale, but I'm still active in it

 

[JennM]

Thanks for understanding

For what it's worth, I haven't seen a wild caught seahorse on a list for a long time. Maybe once or twice since the seahorse went onto the CITES appendix. Unfortunately the size rules don't take into account the size of species... so it's actually illegal to import dwarfs (h. zostrae) or anything smaller than the minimum size limit, even if that size is full adult size. It's a sort of wacky regulation that they couldn't reach a consensus on since species identification can be tricky.

A "general" rule of thumb is that wholesale is 1/3 to 1/2 of retail - if that helps. Of course some commercial breeders charge a lot more than others... I've seen wild fluctuations in the price of captive raised species. And the price of wild-caughts has gone crazy since it's difficult to get them now.

A few years ago one could easily purchase a wild caught seahorse for about $20 retail. Now the price of captive raised ranges from $50 to 75 retail.... just based on my own experience.

I used to keep seahorses as my personal hobby.

Of course 5 years ago or a bit more I paid well over $225 for 4 Ocean Rider captive raised horses... and in hindsight I was hosed. Horses came in afflicted with a bacterial infection, and they died shortly after. Contacted Ocean Rider and got a pat on the head and an explanation that I must have had ammonia spikes in my tank. :roll:

Gee I've only been a hobbyist for 20 years and worked in the trade for 5 now - 4 years I've owned my own store -- what the heck do *I* know?!

Anyway - suffice it to say I'd never invest any more money with that company... besides there are other captive breeders now, and prices have adjusted accordingly.

When comparing prices, make sure you're comparing similar species. It's not reasonable to compare a H. erectus caught in FL and sold within the US, with an H. reidi caught in Brazil and imported into the US. Or an H. comes imported from PI or whereever... apples and bowling balls, as it were.

Sorry I can't be more specific than that... but hope some of the info is helpful.

Jenn

 

[marbio]

Thanks a lot Jenn! That does actually help me so that I can at least offer a price range in my paper. I have heard similar things with Ocean Rider and I can't believe people pay those prices with the other options that are available. I've checked out the seahorse forums and talked to a few people that keep them and they all seem to be wary of the Vietnam H. reidi I think they are that are coming in. Some of them are suggesting that they are really wild or are called tank raised to get around that or something? Can anyone expand on that if they feel comfortable with it? I really like the reidi and I was thinking of comparing them in my paper so I'm looking for as much info on them as possible. It seems there is far more info available on seahorses then on pipefish and especially dragonets, little to no captive breeding going on with them, so I will probably focus more on seahorse prices.

Thanks again Jenn, I really appreciate you stepping up and helping.

 

[JennM]

Hmmm well...

Firstly, when I bought my deaddies from Ocean Rider, it was about 5 1/2 years ago. There were NO other choices available at the time. A lot has changed since then and it's quite likely that adding seahorses to the CITES appendix has made it more lucrative to captive breeders, since it trickier to bring in wild caught specimens from other countries.

The way I understand it (and I'm not an importer so I'll readily admit my knowledge of import protocols is sketchy at best) this doesn't change things on the domestic front - seahorses can still be collected in US waters and sold in the US without the red tape, and there are 3 species found here that I'm aware of - H. erectus (range from Nova Scotia, Canada to northern South America) and H. reidi, which range from ~ the Carolinas to South America, and H. zostrae (tiny dwarfs) which are commonly found along the southeast coast of the US. Under current CITES regulations, one could never import H. zostrae because they don't even come close to the size limit, which if I remember correctly, is 10 cm (~4 inches).

I attended a lecture last year that showed all the different species and their sizes and interpreted the CITES regulations, and and those regulations eliminate most species from import, because they simply don't grow that large, period. Faulty regulation, IMO but the suits did their best I guess :roll:

Anyway - concerning the Viet Nam tank raised - I've had some, and I have no reason to believe they weren't. I've had tank raised from two sources, one identified the country of origin, the other source didn't - however the ponies looked the same to me. One identifies them as H. reidi, the other as H. kellogi. The horses are small, 1 1/2" to 2" and it's tricky enough to discern males from females never mind the actual specie. Not sure either way... I have lots of experience with adult H. reidi (and H. erectus for that matter) but had never seen H. kellogi before.

In any event, both "tank raised" sourced horses all came in healthy, eating prepared foods, and out of the 20 or so I've sourced from both places, I haven't lost one (except to a mechanical issue). I can't say the same with my own hobbyist experience with wild-caughts. I lost a bunch of those in my quest for a pair or two, several years ago. Wild caughts don't come in accepting prepared foods, they have to be trained to accept them.

I can't speak to where the seahorse.org folks are getting their "tank raised" horses that they aren't sure about, but I can tell you that I have no cause to doubt both my sources of them. I've seen enough wild caughts to know the difference.

Besides if they were wild caught, they'd probably be larger - larger horses = higher price. These are all small, and usually uniform in size - they're all about the same when I get them. That would be hard to do with wild caughts.

Compared with other marine species, seahorses are relatively easy to breed - they will do that prolifically on their own. Rearing the fry takes considerable skill, and I didn't have too much success in that regard, I was on my way to working it to a fine art, but then I opened my business and didn't have the time to devote to it anymore, so I quit trying. That and I lost my big male shortly before that, and I didn't have the time or money to try to find another pair. My male was 9 1/4" tall from snout to tail when he died - I can only assume he was old, as he was very large, even for H. reidi. Wild caughts (of which he was one) don't come with a birth certificate *g* and I'd had him and his mate about 2 years when he died.

During his lifespan with me, he'd give birth routinely every other Sunday morning, and Monday afternoon he'd be smoking a cigarette (pregnant again). I got lots of interesting video of them courting, mating... the only thing I wasn't able to catch on tape was him giving birth. I only witnessed it myself one time, and it was amazing - but I didn't have the camcorder! Usually he released his fry before dawn, except this one time.

I also had some little brown pipefish I collected in the Florida panhandle... they reproduced well too and much easier to rear than the horses - in fact I reared some to size and was able to give them away to a friend, who also had them breed if my memory serves. First time around I learned that pipes, unlike seahorses, will eat their young ... once I figured that out I was sure to remove the daddy once he released his young - then I had no trouble at all rearing the little ones. Like threads with eyeballs!

As for dragonets, I've heard of pairs spawning in captivity but have never heard of anyone actually rearing them. Given the delicate nature of the dragonet and its feeding habits, IMO it's not a practical fish to attempt to breed for commercial purposes.

Cardinals such as Banggai cardinals are easy to breed too - lots of hobbyists are doing that - the fry are more developed than say clownfish fry are - and plenty are also breeding and rearing clownfish.

Hope this helps some more

Jenn

 

[marbio]

Thanks again Jenn for sharing your experiences. As for the Vietnam seahorses I don't really know much but it seems to be confusing a lot of folks on the seahorse boards. I have no idea what species they are either and I'm not familiar with the kellogi so I will have to look that up. I found an article on one of the boards that mentioned a little about the Vietnam aquaculture of seahorses. Here is the link to the article of anyone is interested
http://www.thanhniennews.com/features/? ... wsid=15123

It mentions in the article that they are sold in the US mainland for $3-5, so I'm guessing that is to a wholesaler? That seems pretty low to me but I don't really know much so maybe it's not. Then if the wholesaler sells them for twice that to a store, that's seems pretty decent for a cultured species, which I thought would cost more? I guess it depends on what the shop owner decides to sell them for then.

Thanks again for your help Jenn!

 

[JennM]

Well if they're selling for 3-5 to a wholesaler, the price is JUMPING from wholesaler to retailer.

I understand about markups... that's what makes the economy go around but I don't know if that's an accurate number or not.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

The $3-5 US is a local price for Viet Nam I believe. However I have seen some pretty cheap seahorses lately. I have seen some for around $8 US to retailers. They are fairly small though and somewhat delicate at this size. They are supposed to be yellow, but they are still black at this size. I'm not sure of the species, but they look more like kuda than reidi. What size do they need to be to be completely legal? I believe calling them 4" would be a stretch.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

10.99 - 12.99 for TR Kellogi from a large wholesaler. These retail for $75-100 in my local store. 8O

 

[dizzy]

Wow Chris,
You must live in a neighborhood like the folks at the Reef Check party. We sell them for $24.99 here in our neck of the woods. Or maybe we are talking apples to oranges. How big were the ones at your local store?

 

[Anonymous]

Wow Chris,
You must live in a neighborhood like the folks at the Reef Check party. We sell them for $24.99 here in our neck of the woods. Or maybe we are talking apples to oranges. How big were the ones at your local store?

Little ones that are about the smallest you would want to sell at. They did have a sale $64.99 per horse for a 3lot... :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

heh f$s sells a zebra pleco for over 100.00- we were selling 'em for less than 50.00 ovr 3 years ago, when i was in joisey, heh



retail pricing doesn't always have any relevance to wholesale pricing

 

[marbio]

10.99 - 12.99 for TR Kellogi from a large wholesaler. These retail for $75-100 in my local store. 8O

Is the TR for tank raised? Is that the same as captive bred then? Or does it mean the babies were collected and then trained to eat frozen foods etc.?

Thanks everyone for your contributions!

My paper is due soon so I gotta get back to it...I originally had an extention due to an illness so my class is actually over and my prof was nice enough to help me out.

 

[Anonymous]

10.99 - 12.99 for TR Kellogi from a large wholesaler. These retail for $75-100 in my local store. 8O

Is the TR for tank raised? Is that the same as captive bred then? Or does it mean the babies were collected and then trained to eat frozen foods etc.?

Thanks everyone for your contributions!

My paper is due soon so I gotta get back to it...I originally had an extention due to an illness so my class is actually over and my prof was nice enough to help me out.

Tank Raised....Captive Bred...