Question to wholesalers

[bookfish]

yep, there are different markets...that's what i said.

That's not all you said and frankly you managed to put down and dismiss a whole lot of people who are getting a whole lot of fun out of the hobby. You also refer to the "deplorable practice" carried out by Reefer Madness and presumably you're referring to the naming of corals and zoos etc... You somehow seem to believe that any coral, given a fancy name commands a high(er) price. Do you not believe market forces apply in our hobby?
If I value a car as simple transportation and someone else values their car mostly because it's a Jag, does that mean they are "gullible, uneducated and impulsive consumers"?
You really don't have to support any market segment, or fad or trend, but collecting corals at the high end can be expensive and they're expensive to maintain.
I just don't understand the vitreole.-Jim

 

[Anonymous]

yep, there are different markets...that's what i said.

That's not all you said and frankly you managed to put down and dismiss a whole lot of people who are getting a whole lot of fun out of the hobby. You also refer to the "deplorable practice" carried out by Reefer Madness and presumably you're referring to the naming of corals and zoos etc... You somehow seem to believe that any coral, given a fancy name commands a high(er) price. Do you not believe market forces apply in our hobby?
If I value a car as simple transportation and someone else values their car mostly because it's a Jag, does that mean they are "gullible, uneducated and impulsive consumers"?
You really don't have to support any market segment, or fad or trend, but collecting corals at the high end can be expensive and they're expensive to maintain.
I just don't understand the vitreole.-Jim

I do. More, I agree with him on it. The current naming practices have stopped being attached to just the really nice stuff and even run-of-the-mill stuff has a Designer Label name attached to it quite often just so the price it commands can be doubled. Because, yes, there are a large number of hobbyists who wouldn't purchase zooanthids (assorted) for $100 but would if they're called Reverse Radioactive Rhesus Monkey Nipples.

Your car analogy is perfect, just not the way you mean it. It's not a case of those who'd buy the jaguar over the hyundai. It's a case of those who'd buy a car with the regular package versus those who shell out an extra $500 for the "Racer" or "Speed" package, without realizing that all that buys them is an "R" or "S" emblem on their car and nothing else.

 

[Anonymous]

If the stuff with the designer name also has a decent scientific id, I don't really have a problem with it any more than I have a problem with people calling something 'blue zoos'.

The same kind of thing has been happening in the hobby with dry goods - why someone would pay more for an in sump skimmer made out of thicker acrylic is beyond me, but to some people like it.

Marketing is marketing, business is business and some people (though I don't understand it) really like the 'r' or the 's'.

Caveat emptor, and if people are willing to be separated from their money because they like a flashy name, I can't blame vendors for coming up with flashy names.

 

[Piero]

you managed to put down and dismiss a whole lot of people who are getting a whole lot of fun out of the hobby.

Humans derive 'fun' from lots of deplorable, destructive, and nonsustainable activities i think. That doesn't mean we shouldn't expose inconvenient truths, or the negative impacts of those behaviors. But I can certainly see how it might take some fun out of the hobby when you're reminded that it is inherently destructive to the wild habitats we all claim to 'value' so highly. That's the whole 'inconvenient' part about the truth.

Just because people are deriving pleasure from keeping/killing reef life in their livingrooms, does not mean we should not expose inconvenient truths about the trade. Sure I tend to point out the deplorable aspects of the trade/hobby that make it nonsustainable and bring out the worst parts of human nature...that's because frankly I think there's a lot to be ashamed of in its current state. People are easily fooled into thinking it's about cherishing reef life, when it's actually the complete opposite. Similarly, a circus might seem like a source of fun and joy, until you realize what it's like from the perspective of the animals in the show.

Reverse Radioactive Rhesus Monkey Nipples.

ROTFLMAO!!
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[Anonymous]

Similarly, a circus might seem like a source of fun and joy, until you realize what it's like from the perspective of the animals in the show.

[pet peeve]Blanket statement alert. While there are some circus' that treat their animals badly, there are more that treat them well. [/pet peeve]

On the rest of it, I agree - people who justify their home reefs by saying they are 'educational' make me dizzy.

 

[Piero]

hehe, Thales although I can relate to your pet peeve about blanket statements...

I still doubt that any circus provides adequate environments - specifically in the form of a natural setting to live in with trees and green earth and sunlight - for any of the aniimals involved. I could be mistaken.
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[Anonymous]

It all depends on your definition of 'adequate', and I don't think there will ever be agreement 'specially regarding domesticated animals.

 

[bookfish]

yep, there are different markets...that's what i said.

That's not all you said and frankly you managed to put down and dismiss a whole lot of people who are getting a whole lot of fun out of the hobby. You also refer to the "deplorable practice" carried out by Reefer Madness and presumably you're referring to the naming of corals and zoos etc... You somehow seem to believe that any coral, given a fancy name commands a high(er) price. Do you not believe market forces apply in our hobby?
If I value a car as simple transportation and someone else values their car mostly because it's a Jag, does that mean they are "gullible, uneducated and impulsive consumers"?
You really don't have to support any market segment, or fad or trend, but collecting corals at the high end can be expensive and they're expensive to maintain.
I just don't understand the vitreole.-Jim

I do. More, I agree with him on it. The current naming practices have stopped being attached to just the really nice stuff and even run-of-the-mill stuff has a Designer Label name attached to it quite often just so the price it commands can be doubled. Because, yes, there are a large number of hobbyists who wouldn't purchase zooanthids (assorted) for $100 but would if they're called Reverse Radioactive Rhesus Monkey Nipples.

Your car analogy is perfect, just not the way you mean it. It's not a case of those who'd buy the jaguar over the hyundai. It's a case of those who'd buy a car with the regular package versus those who shell out an extra $500 for the "Racer" or "Speed" package, without realizing that all that buys them is an "R" or "S" emblem on their car and nothing else.

But why blame the seller? Especially if there isn't anything deliberately deceptive going on. If someone offers a "Tyree LE blue chalice", at least i know (if it's a reputable seller) the strain I can expect to receive. Now if someone is selling a "Jagwar" or a "Rolix", I can understand being angry with the seller. As far as the buyers go, I believe that market forces come to bear and someone selling product that is not worthwhile will not have a successful business for too long. I certainly agree that the collector coral craze has opened up the market to a bunch of fly by night e-tailers capitalising on buyers' ignorance but this happens in most new markets that are "brand' driven. I'm sure we all know where we could buy "
"designer" clothes with fake designer labels that are cheap sweat shop knockoffs of the real thing. The choice is yours as to what market segment you choose to operate in. And I also agree that it's a shame that people don't research their purchases more carefully especially when it comes to livestock purchases.-Jim

 

[Anonymous]

If someone offers a "Tyree LE blue chalice", at least i know (if it's a reputable seller) the strain I can expect to receive. Now if someone is selling a "Jagwar" or a "Rolix", I can understand being angry with the seller.

But that's part of it, of course. Many sellers take something which isn't the particular coral they claim it is and sell it under these names. The ridiculous "superman" craze is a prime example, with sellers offering wild collected similiar morphs under the name in order to sell the coral. Plenty more will just come up with a name variant, such as "Supergirl", in the hopes that people will incorrectly associate it with the existing named piece. Other named pieces are just flat out associated in error... I knew Rob Becker, I got some of his blue tortuosa way back in 1997 directly from him, and I can tell you that whatever two dealers I know of are selling as Becker tortuosas actually are, they aren't Becker tortuosas.

But far more at issue to me is the fact that any "named" coral seems to automatically acquire value in many buyers eyes, which have led various dealers to label -everything- they get with some cutesy name. Nevermind that when they get the exact some coral morph in a month later they've forgotten what they originally call it and hang a second silly name on it.

 

[clarionreef]

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