Sump with frag area

[darkdrako]

I recently was given a 75 gallon tank from my wife and am trying to plan out a sump. I would like to incorporate a frag tank within the sump itself and have done a little brainstorming. Thinking about using a 40br with acrylic baffles.

The flow would be right to left in the diagram. I have never designed a sump before so any help would be great.

 

[georgelc86]

I think placing the skimmer after the fuge/frag section runs you the risk of skimming out amphipods and other good critters that have been growing and spawning in your fuge and thus defeating one of the purposes of havning a fuge in place, which is an area of isolation allowing natural food to grow and be introduced into your display tank. I personally would do, tank drain --> skimmer --> fuge/frag section --> return pump

 

[darkdrako]

I was more worried of the return pump and scwd chopping everything up so I put the sump/frag area the furthest from the return.

 

[georgelc86]

what do you mean by chopping everything up?

 

[darkdrako]

The impeller of the return pump sucking up the water with pods etc in it.

 

[georgelc86]

I gotcha, well, they are going to hit the return pump and scwd at some point. The scwd is powered by water so they wouldnt really get chopped up there. The return pump is possible but i am going to guess they their size they would be caught up in the vacum and get passed through. with the skimmer is collection cup or bust.

http://www.melevsreef.com/make_a_sump.html

 

[tomtoothdoc]

i agree with george -- tank drain --> skimmer --> fuge/frag section --> return pump. assuming there's some sort of mechanical filter like a sock, pad, etc, catching bigger debris at the drain then the skimmer would be next at bat. this will help with less accumulation of gunk in the fuge/frag section.
i wouldn't worry about the pump and scwd chopping up the pods, they're so small most will make it thru fine.

question on the second drawing right where the water drains in, is that a pad which the water flows thru or is it solid bottom where the water drains to and over flows into the fuge section. if it's solid and that shallow, you will have a lot of splashes. assuming a 1" drain pipe and return rate of ~400-600 gph, you will end up with wet floor. something doesn't look right with that drawing.

with the first drawing, that corner section where the water drains in should have a sock incorporated in there to help catch bigger debris.

just a reminder of the skimmer section, check the foot print of the skimmer plus it's pump. better yet test fit them in place before glueing the baffles. also the return section, less than 5" is kinda tight, mag 9.5/ eheim 1262 just barely fits in there and if it touches any part of the tank or baffle, it can create a resonance that can be quite annoying.

with that drawing, the level of the water will be dictated by the height of the baffle just next to the return section. most skimmer for your size have a recommended water height around 8-10".

where is the sump going to be?....if it's underneath the stand, try putting the sump and the skimmer in with the tank in place(hopefully it's not filled). i have a 75 and a similar size sump, the only way i can get the sump and the skimmer in was to take the tank off the stand and come through the top. the middle support had to be removed and replace back. plus my skimmer now is a permanent fixture in that sump, there is not enough height clearance to remove the skimmer body.

what kind of lights are you planning to use in the frag/fuge section?

just my $0.02. hope this helps not hinders. don't want others to make the same mistakes i made.

good luck and have fun.

 

[cali_reef]

I see two options:

1. Not as much critters in the fuge since it is being fed by water "cleaned" by a skimmer (and a filter sock), lack of food will prevent pods from growing and breeding.

2. Some of critters being removed by the skimmer because the fuge is before the skimmer.

Both options involves some of the pods getting chopped up by the return pump.

I like option 2 better. I personally never, ever, seen any pods in the 100's of gallons of skimmet I poured down my drain that were removed by any one of my skimmers... In fact, I had some growing at the inside base of my BK300, they liked the detritus that's collected there.

 

[darkdrako]

That section showing the overflow was just to show where it would be. I think I'm going to do an open bottom on it for a sock. I just didn't show the sock there. Edit: Also notice I showed the arrow upside down.

The footprint including the pump for the skimmer is 12" x 7.5"

For the time being, I am going to use a quietone pump for the return which is almost 4 cubic inches.

Everything will be test fitted a few times before gluing in everything.

The sump is going to be below the tank. There is 22 1/2" clearance through the front of the stand and almost 24" directly under the tank. If I go with this skimmer, I was thinking about putting a drain in if it does not fit.

Over the frag area, I am going to use the 24" Nova Extreme 4x24w with new ATI bulbs. Over the sump area, will be an Aqualight 36w pc with more than likely 6700k bulbs

Your help and opinions are very appreciated.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

The sump is going to be below the tank. There is 22 1/2" clearance through the front of the stand and almost 24" directly under the tank. If I go with this skimmer, I was thinking about putting a drain in if it does not fit.
have you tried sliding the sump in thru the opening?, mine didn't clear the turn thru the front opening.
the skimmer body did not have clearance to be taken out for maintenace either so the only way i could clean it was to pump out the crud collected at the bottom of the skimmer body with a maxijet hooked up to a 1/2 ' hose.:supermad:

Over the frag area, I am going to use the 24" Nova Extreme 4x24w with new ATI bulbs. Over the sump area, will be an Aqualight 36w pc with more than likely 6700k bulbs
how will you set up the 24" nova over the 20" frag area?...obviously not with legs.

hope this helps. sounds like you planned everything thoroughly.

 

[darkdrako]

The stand is reinforced angle iron (by myself and a friend) with no division in the front opening. I'll hopefully have a picture later. I currently do not have the tank for the sump; trying to plan it all out first. As for the nova lighting, I am going to cut the acrylic so that there is a tab as close to level with the edge of the tank and use the adjustable legs to rest on the tab with a screw drilled through it so there would be no accidental movement possible. At least that's the current idea.

I'm trying to plan everything possible so that I know what to save for and how much.

Any suggestions on a shorter skimmer to look at?

 

[MarkF]

Don't forget to factor in the siphon effect that will occur if the power goes out. You need to plan for some additional space for the water to drain down from the display tank. This would be done based on the baffle height.

Also what are you planning on doing for top off? If you don't have an Automatic top off the water level in the pump return section will drop (assuming it is a solid baffle with water coming in over the top). With such a small return section you will not have that much water volume before your pump becomes exposed and runs dry (or sucks in air and creates bubbles in the display)

 

[darkdrako]

Don't forget to factor in the siphon effect that will occur if the power goes out. You need to plan for some additional space for the water to drain down from the display tank. This would be done based on the baffle height.

Also what are you planning on doing for top off? If you don't have an Automatic top off the water level in the pump return section will drop (assuming it is a solid baffle with water coming in over the top). With such a small return section you will not have that much water volume before your pump becomes exposed and runs dry (or sucks in air and creates bubbles in the display)

Once the tank is drilled/plumbed and I can calculate how much water would enter the overflow and into the sump. Once I know how much water will, I can apply it to the sump design. As far as an ATO I have not planned that yet. Until I can set one up, daily topoffs will suffice (already used to it with my smaller tanks). Does an ATO Have to be a certain size to work? ie can I use say a 10 gallon container/tank as opposed to a 20 gallon?

 

[MarkF]

My ATO is a 5 gallon bucket that sits above my tank and a simple mechanical float valve installed in my sump in the return area. When I go on vacation I attach my RO/DI water hose directly to the float valve. I have a 75gal and a 30gal sump and I go through about 5 gal of top-off every 5 or so days. I am now using this setup with Kalkwasser instead of plain water.

 

[MarkF]

Assuming you have a similar tank size to mine and similar evaporation rates you will need to make sure your return section can hold at least 2gal of water, 1 gal for evaporation loss and 1 gal to keep the pump submerged.

 

[MarkF]

Once the tank is drilled/plumbed and I can calculate how much water would enter the overflow and into the sump. Once I know how much water will, I can apply it to the sump design. As far as an ATO I have not planned that yet. Until I can set one up, daily topoffs will suffice (already used to it with my smaller tanks). Does an ATO Have to be a certain size to work? ie can I use say a 10 gallon container/tank as opposed to a 20 gallon?

I don't think flow matters in the pump design (except for the overflow section of your sump, which would cause splashing etc if not designed right). The actual flow volume is dictated by your return pump and limited by your overflow plumbing. Too much return (return greater than overflow) and you'll flood the display tank. Too little return (overflow greater than return) and there is no problem.

You can design your 40gal tank/sump to hold 10 gal or 30gal when in operation it all depends on the baffle heights.

 

[tomtoothdoc]

Don't forget to factor in the siphon effect that will occur if the power goes out. You need to plan for some additional space for the water to drain down from the display tank. This would be done based on the baffle height.

Also what are you planning on doing for top off? If you don't have an Automatic top off the water level in the pump return section will drop (assuming it is a solid baffle with water coming in over the top). With such a small return section you will not have that much water volume before your pump becomes exposed and runs dry (or sucks in air and creates bubbles in the display)

You need to plan for some additional space for the water to drain down from the display tank. This would be done based on the baffle height.

when the power is off or when the return pump is not pumping, the water in the main tank and in the plumbing will all flow into the sump. therefore you must have spare room for this volume of water or it will over flow.
how much water can be calculated with this:

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/vol.phps

(75 gal. = 48x18x20) the height for the formula is the distance between the rim of the display tank and the drain point(the rim of the internal over flow or if no built in overflow then it's where the bottom of bulk heads are drilled in). so assuming the water drops by 1- 2", you will need room for at least 7.5 gal. in the sump.

again using the volume calculator above for the sump (40 br.= 36x18x16), the baffle(the one that determine the water height is the one next to the return section in your drawing) should not be taller than 11" max. actually 10" would probably be better.....err on the safe side and that also will be a good height for most skimmer that will fit in that dimension.


With such a small return section you will not have that much water volume before your pump becomes exposed and runs dry (or sucks in air and creates bubbles in the display)

the evaporation will cause the water in the return section to drop whereas all sections before the height determining baffle will remain constant. the volume in the return pump section is only 3.5 gal (5x18x9 //the pump inlet @1" high), you don't have much room there for evaporation. i used to have up to 2 gal of evaporation per day in a set up similar to yours.

imo you should increase the return section to 7"(7x18x9) to give yourself about 4.9 gal of volume in there. lose the 2" from the fuge/frag section.