The Philippines, net training, key players/ Relevant info.

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

What does this refer to? Timeframe....trainer...location???

Nancy

Sorry, thought that was clear from the context...

Trainings under Haribon, specifically after Steve left.

The collector was from Zambales. I do not recall that he told me the trainer's name, but he mentioned two girls from University of the Philippines.

But this is old news. Sorta like talking about the Viet Cong instead of Al Qaeda. I only offer it because what the collectors told me corroborates what Steve has said... I understand the history all too well.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

NEXT

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Concrete evidance. If its so good, why have you only posted about this letter, and not posted the actual letter? You wouldn't even forward it to Mary, one of the people it was addressed to. It can't be a confidentality question, it was written to her!!! the only things us readers can gather from your actions, are 1. the letter ins't damning or 2. you don't actually have the letter, you've only been told about it or your making it up.

MAC gets bashed, MAC backers ask, "what are you doing to help". Said bashers say, "we found a group that'll support real training and supply netting (unlike past trainings), and they'd like to work with MAC". MAC and said group fail to work with each other, so they seperate. The said bashers find another group thats willing to support training and netting supply, seperate then any MAC programs. So now theres competing training fractions, and MAC backers can't accept it. The MAC backers in question are now trying to find anything on the other group, to shut them down, making MAC the only group again. Why not have competing training sessions, it'll show who's bonafide and who's trying to pull the wool over our eyes. MAC wants miilions, and needs millions. Unlike MAC, the other group isn't salary heavy, actually, theres no salaries to be paid, so all the money they recieve goes to actual goods and services. With what Paul has made from his years at MAC, thousasnds could've been trained and equipted with proper supplies.

NEXT

 

[Jaime Baquero]

I got over 15 PM from readers expressing support.

You know what I find interesting? Jaime and Naesco both tout the extensive support they supposedly get in private. But not a single one of those fervent supporters have enough conviction in what either of these two are saying to step forward publicly and support their "heroes". I didn't even receive 15 individual pms about the netting material fundraiser- and it was a lot more visible than this thread. Just for the record Jaime, one person going back and forth with you in pm 15 times does not equal 15 readers expressing support.

NEXT

 

[clarionreef]

Pot...kettle...black.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike,

I've taken my time to prepare this post because I do not want you to {yawn} and say " There's nothing on TV, honey.....I've seen this movie before"

Oh, no... I ALWAYS tune in for the "Jaime and Wayne's World" show.

So... lets put some substance here in.

You , Mike, Mary and Steve are saying that the collectors can sell their fish to ANY exporter they select, including the bad ones. Aren't you worried about the fact that those "other" exporters could mix your net caught fish with cyanide caught ?

"Your"??? I'm not in the fish business, Jaime. Let's get that fallacy out of the way first. My work has nothing to do with fish or water.

More on your question at the end...

You have been attacking MAC because they, as you have stated many times, are certifying exporters that sell net caught mixed with cyanide caught fish. Are you planning to do the same?

I have no such plans, Jaime. Again, I am not in the fish business.

How can you be sure that your fish is cyanide free?

Well, my fish are one yellow tang from Hawaii and one ORA tank-bred Pajama Cardinal. I don't think either one was caught with cyanide...

You are saying that your movement is willing to sell the fish coming from your "program" to the highest bidder, if that bidder is Lolita Ty (MAC Certified exporter), then so be it.

My movement? I started a movement? Huh. Forgive me if I have no idea what movement that is...

Mike, those are just words because the situation in the field is completely different as follows:

**** Earlier - Ferdinand had the collectors diverting half their shipments to Imperial and Habitat, the other half I assume was diverted to RVS.

****Later- When Marivi, from Habitat, was considering to join the MAC certification program, Ferdinand got dissapointed with Marivi, but to that time Ferdinand, "STILL hadn't prevent any fish from flowing into her outfit".

****Today- An with Ferdinand "power and control of the situation" is possible that she'll start to have problems to get good quality, high value fish and variety. This because she is now a MAC certified exporter.

Huh? This makes no sense. In the beginning, Ferdinand sat down with Marivi to create a target price for net-caught fish that was higher than what other exporters were paying. She was getting most all of the fish. She was certified and life was good. Then some of the PTFEA members got certified, using the fish tracking system she had spent two years working on. However, they didn't raise their prices, so she still got the bulk of the fish.

In the meantime, I understand others have slowly come around and started raising their prices to also get the net-caught fish. So the collectors began to spread around the wealth. Some of this started before Ferdie left MAC. It is no secret that Ferdinand did not like the fact that some of the PTFEA members got certified.

Ferdinand priority number one is to make Imperial succed in the US. It doesn't matter what the cost will be.

Ok, that one came WAY out of left field... There is a jump in logic here I do not think you can make... Did I just get abducted by aliens and lose nine minutes?

I find this very disturbing and sick? Do you guys support Ferdinand actions?!

Did I just get abducted again? Jaime, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The Jaime and Wayne's World show's plot is like a caliopy on a carousel. Going round and round, with lots of steam and heat and wild music, but are you going anywhere?

Are we there yet?

***********************************************************
Ok, Do I support Ferdinand's actions?

Well, yes, I support him giving nets to the net collectors.
I support him going to Aparri to give net trainings to the other 94 collectors using cyanide.
I support him training collectors in Bicol.
I support him introducing collectors to a number of exporters.
I support him in helping to negotiate the best price for these collectors that they can get for their fish.

Others have made claims that the PTFEA is a cyanide cartel and that almost all fish that they sell are caught with cyanide.

If we posit that this is true, you ask me if I am worried about the collectors selling fish to the cartel.

My answer to you is that, honestly, I would be conflicted. On the one hand, the 'cartel' should be shut down. But on the other, if a village has been turned from cyanide to nets, then this is one less place where cyanide is being used. This is a victory from which we can move on to the next village.

Reform without the cash and commitment will always proceed slowly. At this point, we are talking about reform a village at a time, Jaime. Once we hit all the villages, where will 'the cartel' be buying their fish from? Indonesia? No, they will still be PI fish, but caught with nets instead of cyanide. "The cartel" would become a net cartel instead of a cyanide one.

I recognize one thing: If I were to fight the PTFEA, I would lose. However, by working to convert their sources, we win in a way that is permanent and spectacular.

The real question is: How do we ignite the trainings? Where do we get the money? I know that this is to esoteric for hobbyists, and 'industry' will do little to support it: I think they will define things as self-interest, and not support anything that would benefit their competitors, even if it benefitted them equally. There will be too many companies that hold back, and not contribute, yet will expect to ride that wave when it comes in. Honestly, I think it has to come from government, grants, NGOs or possibly fund raisers.

I still have to question what you were trying to ask about Ferdie and where those questions came from. You mentioned earlier an e-mail that came in to you, from someone unnamed. This apparently was not addressed to you, but contained some juicy tidbits, of which you have been hinting around about. And by hinting around, I mean around and around and around and around and around. I'm getting dizzy, Jaime, trying to catch all the hints and innuendos you haphazardly drop from an e-mail from someone who has an axe to grind.

Why don't you just lay it out for us straight?

Who was the e-mail from?
To whom was it addressed?
What were the allegations it made about Ferdinand?

As I see it, your credibility is on the line here, Jaime.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

This message has good points and can be answered , but first work it a bit. remove things as "cartel"

jaime

 

[MaryHM]

Jaime,

I'm still waiting for you to forward the email you are referring to to me so I can make sure we're on the same page. [email protected]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Ding Ding Ding!! And the prize goes to Jaime for the most ridiculous post in the Industry Forum (and believe me, that's quite an acheivement).

Good grief. Where to start???

You , Mike, Mary and Steve are saying that the collectors can sell their fish to ANY exporter they select, including the bad ones. Aren't you worried about the fact that those "other" exporters could mix your net caught fish with cyanide caught ?

We aren't here to control what every exporter does. We're here to try to get collectors to use nets instead of cyanide. Once they all do that, the cyanide problem (as far as the aquarium trade is concerned) is solved. If an exporter doesn't have the choice of buying cyanide caught, then there's no mixing problem. You say "mix your net caught fish". They aren't mixing my fish. I buy from exporters that refuse to mix. If you are trying to imply that fish caught with the netting I sent are my fish, then you really don't understand anywhere near what you think you do. I would rather see an exporter mix net caught and cyanide than have all cyanide. And let's face it, the big exporters are going to be forced to mix in the beginning. There's not enough supply currently.

You have been attacking MAC because they, as you have stated many times, are certifying exporters that sell net caught mixed with cyanide caught fish. Are you planning to do the same?

Your damn right we attack MAC for allowing their "certified" exporters to carry cyanide caught fish. When you label a company as MAC Certified, it sets up a certain idea in people's heads that all of the fish are net caught. And MAC doesn't do a bit of PR to let people know otherwise. In my mind, that is fraudulent. MAC is held to a higher standard because they are certifying the industry. It should mean something. For the second part, where in the world did any of us ever say anything about certifying any fish?? You've gone off the deep end there. The collective "we" are not about certifying. We're about getting net caught fish into the marketplace. You can take your MAC stickers and use them to try to hold your argument together- that's about all they're worth.

How can you be sure that your fish is cyanide free?

You can never be 100% absolutely positive. But you can do certain things to make sure you are as close to 100% sure as possible. You can buy from exporters who you know are dedicated to being cyanide free. You can witness their stocklists and see the availability difference between their's and the cyanide exporter's lists. You can see the mortality difference.

You are saying that your movement is willing to sell the fish coming from your "program" to the highest bidder, if that bidder is Lolita Ty (MAC Certified exporter), then so be it.

Please show me where someone in our "movement" said we were going to sell fish from our "program"??? We've said the collectors are allowed to sell the fish to whoever they want. That's not because we allow them to- that's because it's the way it is and has always been. Now, if you're talking about a collector union program, well that's made up of collectors and again they can sell to whomever they please.

Earlier - Ferdinand had the collectors diverting half their shipments to Imperial and Habitat, the other half I assume was diverted to RVS.

Ferdinand links collectors to exporters who are willing to pay more. He does not tell them who they have to sell to. I know this for a fact because I asked him if he would please make sure exporter ABC was getting a better variety and he told me he would ask the collectors, but that it wasn't up to him.

Later- When Marivi, from Habita, was considering to join the MAC certification program, Ferdinand got dissapointed with Marivi, but to that time Ferdinand, "STILL hadn't prevent any fish from flowing into her outfit". ****Today- An with Ferdinand "power and control of the situation" is possible that she'll start to have problems to get good quality, high value fish and variety. This because she is now a MAC certified exporter.

Marivi was MAC certified before Ferdinand resigned from MAC. So your statement is totally false and ignorant. Even after he left, he was still helping Marivi. I do know that since then they have had their differences. However, Marivi still gets fish. How is that possible since according to you Ferdinand controls who the collectors sell to?? Answer that one, Jaime. Don't run around making "it is possible that she'll start to have problems" statements. Either she's having problems getting the fish or not. Which is it? She's been trying to sell to me again, so I assume she has plenty of fish. In fact, she has a new business plan that would require her to have lots of fish. Where is she getting them?? The Philippine fish fairy??

Ferdinand priority number one is to make Imperial succed in the US. It doesn't matter what the cost will be.

Really? Ferdinand has never told me I must order from Imperial. He suggested them as another net caught dealer, but has told me repeatedly that we must try to support them all so that all of them succeed. Your statement is again false and ignorant. Your accusations just get stupider the more you type.

All of your recent statements reek of jealousy. We are able to do independently what your organization was unable to do. I'm sorry that you were so unsuccessful in your pursuits, but I don't think that gives you the right to try to tear down the good that is being done just because you aren't involved. You're either a part of the problem or a part of the solution. At this point you are a part of the problem.

NEXT

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Pot...kettle...black.

Ignored forever do not waste your time.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

I'm still waiting for you to forward the email you are referring to to me so I can make sure we're on the same page. [email protected]

Mary,

I'll get back to you tomorrow regarding the e-mail.

jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Guess you need glasses as well Jamie, my name is in print EVERY time I post, yet you still think its Greshman.

Greshman, You have another customer .

You've lost me, what on earth are you tralking about. Ramblings of a crazy man, sounds like to me.

You have continually failed to answer any questions from people on this thread, other then ones you choose to answer. I used to do that as a kid, seletive listen, BUT I GREW OUT OF THAT.

Tullock got out of this industry because of what it was doing, just to join another industry thats done more ecological damage then our industry ever has. Orchids, yup now theres a industry that started out on a good environmental footing. The original orchid hunters, burned entire forests to eliminate all the orchids growing there, making them extinct, so no other orchid hunter could own one. They even burned down fellow orchid hunters greenhouses and had them murderred in the field in their quest to be the sole owner rare orchids.

Man, yet another hose sucker who thinks he knows it all, I finally see why you don't like to talk about yourself. I also see now why MAC invited you to the MAC workshop. Funny thing is, when I asked about what you've done, you supplied a list of things. One of them, you stated you've imported fish for your business (service guy), well we just learned you were pumping up the list to make yourself look bigger. 2 trial shipments does not make one an importer of fish, but hay, all my friends in the tech field lie on their resumes as well, to look more attactive. What was your role, other then a little water quality speach and paper (you can't call that an article, its like what, 3 paragraphs). What exactly was your role in PI, what did you do?

BTW, recieving money from OFI for your pilot program (which is another way of saying, failed business) PNP means you did get assistance from the industry. Dealing direct with stores and hobbyists drove every wholesaler away from you. dealing with hobbyist, drove the stores away. Why you failed is evident, you had no clue how the industry really works, and stepped on every ones feet. Then you cried foul after they wouldn't support you for stepping on their feet and selling to their customers. How did you expect them to take it? Example, in Chicago, you tried to set-up a way for CMAS to get cheap, direct fish (straight from PI to Chicago) from PNP. Hearing that news, all the local stores and wholesalers instantly wrote you off.

Ignored forever do not waste your time

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Well I sent a supportive p.m. to Jaime. Maybe to the REEForm guy too. Maybe the reason they have supportive p.m.'s is because some of you other folks would take public support of thier efforts to bash them as well as Jaime. I suspect that there are many lirking readers here that do not want to open themselves up for insult but appreciate someone voicing a 'differing' point of view and questioning the unquestionable. So private support rather than public support.

I'm just starting to understand how much information you peolpe had about about Imperial and Ferd. Instead of helping you chose to stonewall and insult. Looks like you are doing the same thing to Jaime.

Bottom line is that Ferd is an unknown quantiuty. Wish he'd answer the questions about what he is doing rather than Mike Kirda. Ferd has posted here in the past. We know that he can come up with netting money from the exporters when it suits him. When he was the net trianing guy for MAC he didn't do that. Wasn't he reponsible for the success of the MAC training efforts and pull down a huge salary? Did he try to get net money from the MAC exporters or MAC? The exporters make the money from the fish sales, right? Let them buy some net. For the very few MAC collectors that there are Ferd could have bankrolled for a a roll of netting material himself if he is so trueblue to the cause.

Thank you Jaime for asking a few questions!

Sardonic,

This is a difficult task, I knew I would be expossed to the insults. In spanish we use to say " algunas veces al decir la verdad puede ser doloroso' in english I thinks is something like " truth hurts sometimes".
I see that the number of people participating actively is very reduced, meaning that the insults are coming from 5-6 people. There are others out there that are reading this thread and find it informative.

Many thanks for your support. I do belive in right, keeping that information for myself would be wrong.

Sincerely

Jaime

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Well I sent a supportive p.m. to Jaime. Maybe to the REEForm guy too. Maybe the reason they have supportive p.m.'s is because some of you other folks would take public support of thier efforts to bash them as well as Jaime. I suspect that there are many lirking readers here that do not want to open themselves up for insult but appreciate someone voicing a 'differing' point of view and questioning the unquestionable. So private support rather than public support.

I'm just starting to understand how much information you peolpe had about about Imperial and Ferd. Instead of helping you chose to stonewall and insult. Looks like you are doing the same thing to Jaime.

Bottom line is that Ferd is an unknown quantiuty. Wish he'd answer the questions about what he is doing rather than Mike Kirda. Ferd has posted here in the past. We know that he can come up with netting money from the exporters when it suits him. When he was the net trianing guy for MAC he didn't do that. Wasn't he reponsible for the success of the MAC training efforts and pull down a huge salary? Did he try to get net money from the MAC exporters or MAC? The exporters make the money from the fish sales, right? Let them buy some net. For the very few MAC collectors that there are Ferd could have bankrolled for a a roll of netting material himself if he is so trueblue to the cause.

Thank you Jaime for asking a few questions!

Sardonic,

This is a difficult task, I knew I would be expossed to the insults. In spanish we use to say " algunas veces al decir la verdad puede ser doloroso' in english I thinks is something like " truth hurts sometimes".
I see that the number of people participating actively is very reduced, meaning that the insults are coming from 5-6 people. There are others out there that are reading this thread and find it informative.

Many thanks for your support. I do belive in right, keeping that information for myself would be wrong.

Sincerely

Jaime

I had enough for today.

I'll come back tomorrow.

Good night

 

[Anonymous]

I am going to lock this thread. Not because any one has done anything wrong, or because any rules were broken, but because it is seven pages long and no one is quite clear what we are talking about.

Jaime, this was your thread, I implore you to start over with what it is you have to say. The written word is not always the best communication tool, so it is occasionally somewhat necessary to take a step back in order to achieve some clarity.