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:lol: :lol: :lol:

in all seriousness, this 'conversation' really got me going

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 947#517947

the self-imposed ignorance, and anthropomorphising some people will undertake towards and regarding mass marketed and farmed tropical fish never ceases to amaze and astound me


funny how i never hear these nincompoops complain about 500 neons in a shipping styro :roll: :lol:

mebbe that's next? 8O
 

Rikko

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That's largely because they don't know (my god, first post and I'm probably wandering into a big flame war. Oh well. :D). Shipping and receiving of fish isn't really open to the public and they'd have no idea just how those fish got there.
500 neons in a shipping styro.. Acceptable if they're handled properly. I consistently throw up my hands in exasperation when I'm handed a box with 50 plecos to a bag with about a liter of water. Do trans shippers just not get it?
(If intro is necessary, yep, I do the LFS thing and have for several years. Most of the tropicals we get are trans shipped from Singapore [or THROUGH Singapore, anyways])

Here's an article with a little more weight than the links provided in that thread:
http://www.petfish.net/painted_glassfish.htm
I respect Dr. Burgess as one of the sources used and I expect many others would as well.

Now just to throw a little gas on the fire... :P

I'm on the bandwagon that fish dying is cruel. The argument that "the fish doesn't feel anything" (better than "it's just a fish" or "fish don't feel pain" imo) is hollow and dodges the issue. Maybe I'm arguing a less tangible point than the fish huggers, but it's immensely disrespectful to life itself to inject shiny colours into it to promote more ignorance of aquatic life.
The aquarium *industry* really only cares about shipping units and turning a profit. I've yet to see any truly consciencious faces higher up. Once you leave the retail level (or very, very often before that) the interests of the welfare of the creatures you keep comes second to turning a dollar. I suppose an argument relating pet keeping to slavery could be made and debated, though it would be much more fun to start it at a PETA convention (or a dog show).
Getting back on track.. We create artificial fish (you know what I mean) in order to draw people in to buying aquariums and fish and food and carbon and biological supplements and all sorts of pricey miracles, but we do it to turn a buck, and not encourage a naturalistic approach. If people ('people' = 'the masses') were truly interested in maintaining and nurturing a slice of life inside their home, they would make a slight effort to research what they were doing and maybe even set up a nice biotope. Instead, people are buying tiny tanks, too many fish, fluorescent ceramic skulls, purple plastic plants, and bubbling treasure chests to stuff into a corner of their house to toy with. Maybe I'm just being a tree hugging old fart, but I consider that disrespect.

The point of whether or not dying "hurts" the fish aside, we take things from their natural habitat for the sole purpose of letting them be stuffed into artificial boxes for people to amuse themselves.

Of course, by that logic, if I build a 8000 gallon reef with surges, moving lighting to simulate sun movement, etc, etc, I'm no better than the family that buys 20 replacement neons from Walmart every week to throw into a bowl.
I dunno, bottom line for me (and I apologize if my argument is so disjoint.. I've had to come back several times to try and express myself the way I'd like to) is that dressing up the fish is just condoning and encouraging abusive fish husbandry.

Maybe I'm just nuts though.
 
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When initially considering the subject, the practice of dyeing the Indian Glassfish seems fairly harmless, as successfully dyed fish undoubtedly stand out in their many 'day-glo' (MacMahon, Burgess, 1998) colours. While unaltered fish are hardy and habitually resist against infection, injected specimens are substantially affected. Dyeing methods traditionally result in mortality rates as high as eighty percent.

now here's the most telling issue about the article, and why nincompoops are nincompoops (not directed at any poster here, hehe)

all through the article the author freely cites each time he uses a source for info (e.g. 'MacMahon, Burgess, 1998'), yet the reference citations seem to mysteriously vanish when the percentage statistics are quoted



The injection process stress Glassfish out immensely, making them progressively susceptible to disease and infection. In particular, a recent survey and investigation conducted in England revealed that over forty percent of Painted Glassfish were infected with the lymphocystis virus. Commonly known as cottony fungus, it is exhibited on a fish as a whitish growth, usually contained to a small area. However, in the same study discovered that less than ten percent of unaltered Glassfish were plagued by the lymphocystis virus. Through the utilization of the same needle and syringe to inject tens, possibly hundreds of fish, it is highly possible that the dyeing process furthers the risk of lymphocystis infection by lowering the fishes natural immunity and likely transmitting the virus via the injection tools.

funny, here in the states (at least in the threee states i've worked in, in an lfs, the regular wild glass fish were FAR more likely to show lympho

mono's seem to be mildly seasonal, re: the incidences of lympho- certain times of the year almost every incoming batch will have a few infected individuals

lympho can be triggered just by the stress of a net catching a fish

why didn't they publish the survey method?

' ello, 'ow many of your glassfish get lympho ?'
' oh bout 40%'
'thank you very much'
<click>
:lol:

there was no direct cause and effect specifically made, mentioned or proven, either (it's impossible to do from a one time phone survey, and i'll bet that some of those lfs's didn't even know what lympho is)

in fact, the posting of a phone survey to establish a statistic of cause and effect just shows how little is behind the actual claim-no real study, no controls, no definite causative link-how did they know the chanda's didn't have lympho BEFORE they were ever dyed ?

every eyewitness account i've read on fish painting involves the anesthetization of the fish prior to the dyeing, so i'm fairly confident that even if the fish are CAPABLE of feeling pain (and the jury is still out on that one), they most probably do not

i would venture to say that doping the fish prior to dyeing is prob'ly a necessity, given the difficulty inherent in trying to stick a small needle into a flip flopper, hehe

at any rate, the whole entire issue of the supposed 'cruelty' of dyeing is such a minor one when it comes to factors that impact upon the quality of life/mortality rates for fw tropical fish, that for someone to yell bloody murder from all this and boycott lfs's, when tens times more fish die from bad airline practices,overcrowding, killing by ignorant hobbyists is simply too funny

it makes more sense to 'take arms' against lfs's that sell oscars for 10 gal. tanks :wink: (chances are that's not all their doing to kill fish and make them 'suffer' unnecessarily)
 

Rikko

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all through the article the author freely cites each time he uses a source for info (e.g. 'MacMahon, Burgess, 1998'), yet the reference citations seem to mysteriously vanish when the percentage statistics are quoted

Excellent point that I wish I'd noticed myself.
You mentioned in the other thread that Axelrod did a full article on the dying (pun not intended) process in TFH Mag ages ago. Any chance of a link to it online? All I turned up were some 404s and porn. I think Google's lived past its prime.


funny, here in the states (at least in the threee states i've worked in, in an lfs, the regular wild glass fish were FAR more likely to show lympho

mono's seem to be mildly seasonal, re: the incidences of lympho- certain times of the year almost every incoming batch will have a few infected individuals

Unfortunately, we just have two anecdotal pieces of evidence colliding here. The only difference is that that one is "published." Agreed on looking for survey methods, but I can BS with confidence that the topic of painting fish is one that is of little interest to science (cosmetically, anyways). Thus we're mostly stuck with emotional appeals.

' ello, 'ow many of your glassfish get lympho ?'
' oh bout 40%'
'thank you very much'
<click>
:lol:

ROFL!

there was no direct cause and effect specifically made, mentioned or proven, either (it's impossible to do from a one time phone survey, and i'll bet that some of those lfs's didn't even know what lympho is)

Not to mention the ones who thought they said "nympho"... :P

at any rate, the whole entire issue of the supposed 'cruelty' of dyeing is such a minor one when it comes to factors that impact upon the quality of life/mortality rates for fw tropical fish, that for someone to yell bloody murder from all this and boycott lfs's, when tens times more fish die from bad airline practices,overcrowding, killing by ignorant hobbyists is simply too funny

it makes more sense to 'take arms' against lfs's that sell oscars for 10 gal. tanks :wink: (chances are that's not all their doing to kill fish and make them 'suffer' unnecessarily)

I support that cause simply because it's a place to start. If it takes *something* to get people to start to think that maybe it's *not* all right to kill tonnes of fish annually at great expense and for no reason, then let a relatively niche cause like painting be it.
When I can get through a work week without hearing any of these, I'll be happy:
"Hi I need a new fish mine keep dying HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE"
"That's ok, I'll take it. If it dies I won't blame you."
"I'm too lazy to bring a water sample; just catch me some fish that look strong."
OR, the ultimate one..
"I'M GOING TO NAME IT NEMO! NEMO! NEEEEEMO!"
(I had a customer come in the other day who was named Nemo. That guy had a serious chip on his shoulder.)

Educating people is tough simply because nobody cares. We could do a big smear story in the paper or the 6 o'clock news. Think they would air it? No, nobody cares. Police shootings and reports of a flasher in the area, or even too many geese in the area pooping on a parking lot: THAT is more newsworthy, because people can relate without having to use that litle gooey thing in their skulls.

The oscar-in-a-10-gal problem is compounded by inexperience of virtually every hobbyist that steps onto the stage. Can *anybody* here say that the very first time they set up an aquarium, they did lots of research, understood the chemical processes inherent in a closed aquarium, and succeeded on the first try? Unlikely. I had my tank up almost a year before I heard about this "pH" thing. And I considered myself consciencious about it.

But there's really nothing to be done, short of dismantling the entire hobby and surrounding industry, and leaving the work to true marine biologists in public aquariums. But when we get to that stage, "owning" pets will be illegal and we'll all be eating soy for every meal. Pass the ketchup.
 
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one thing i can guarantee you is that all the deathbydyeing types will accomplish is getting the painted fish 'out of sight, out of mind'

they will make absolutely no dent whatsoever in the continued 'manufacture' of those 'dayglo' fish worldwide

my biggest concern for those groups (yes, i'm against dyeing too, but not for the reasons the 'causers' are) is that anyone looking for a proof of any kind only gets a buncha semifanatical responses that have no facts to back them up whatsoever, only emotionally driven rhetoric.


that is the most damaging thing for their cause, imo.

you should have seen the reaction i gat when i visited the dbd forums and proposed a simple request for factual scientifically documented proof

i was met with nothing but infantile name calling, semantics arguments, and vitriol, but no objective proof of any kind whatsoever proof :lol:
 

Rikko

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Hmm.. We're not disagreeing enough or drawing in people to get this discussion nearly warm enough...

I guess that's the difference between 'cause'rs and activists.. The 'cause'rs shout slogans (and often show up for free punch and pie) and the activists impart knowledge. And praps the reason nothing ever gets done is that the people in power can't tell the difference between them.
 
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Whats the point of all this..i dont get the PETA or not to PETA? Let people talk..so much propaganda is spread every day in all aspects of life, i guess you have to make up your own mind and decipher fact from fiction..thats the difference between the conforming flock of sheep and the individuals...There's always gonna be Jim Jones, and David Koresh's out there...Theres always gonna be the PETA's and the NAACP's ...my point is, let the DBD and PETA's exsist..the average intelligent human will decipher the fact from fiction...those who dont belong to the "liars" and "manipulators"..you cant stop the weak minded once theyve been turned...
 
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Whats the point of all this..i dont get the PETA or not to PETA?

the peta reference is to bring up a comparison between two sensationalist groups who use strictly bogus info to bolster an emotional cause in a fanatical fashion, the claims of which have little, if any, basis in reality
 
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Right...like i said in my earlier post...why let it bother you? Fighting with any of the Radical groups, just draws more attention to them...like i said the average intelligence will decipher fact from fiction....im not all into their hype and hokus bogus crap..i know they try to use emotions to stir the pot, but if you step back (and im talking those of us that are of atleast average intelligence) and look at the big picture, you'll see them for what they are...Dont get your knickers in a twist there Vitz..i can see Yano had got you fired up...if his stats are wrong, then point out the correct stats or facts and leave it at that...your BP is going up...Im glad you have passion for setting the record straight, i admire that...but dont let the liars get to ya... :D
 
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and when the liars spread misinformation about your industry/hobby ?

if i was spreading lies to the public about a biz/field you work in, to the point of misleading others, and even boycotting your business and others related to your biz for a mistake in comprehension/ignorance ?

you'ld just let it slide ?

you're not an ostrich by any chance, are ya? :wink:
:P
 
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No im no ostrich...you play their game back then it goes back and forth...and no offense, but you obviously havent reached such a large audiance since there are like only 6 members posting on this...I work in the electronics business...talk bad about it...ill have my job tomorrow and ill have it ten years from now...I sincerely doubt the aquarium hobby industry is taking a hit....if anything..movies like Nemo have helped it in a negative way..Parents buying clown fish only to have them die in a week or two...so no offense again, i doubt your business/job has taken too much of a hit cuz someone said dyed fish die 85% of the time...thats why you get a second opionion..sorry Caveat Emptor..hence my post with the 1200 dollar anemone that started this...asked if that was bogus even though i wasnt gonna bid....
 
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P.S. you take them to court if they're spreading lies in public...
 

cdeakle

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Well said LN. You should run for guvna in your state. I would vote for yah! "Lord Nikonater" :wink:

Really though vitz. Get a good nights sleep, wake up, eat your wheaties, smile, and enjoy life. Let it go brutha, let it go :lol:
 

Rikko

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Everyone has a breaking point.. :)
At what point at the party do you interrupt the blatant idiot that you know is completely wrong and "educating" people? Do you completely ignore him and hope his audience will intuit that he's full of crap, or do you smack him down?

Personally I just snigger loudly so I'm noticed and walk away, but I guess I'm just passive aggressive.
 
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Rikko":133jf3c4 said:
At what point at the party do you interrupt the blatant idiot that you know is completely wrong and "educating" people? Do you completely ignore him and hope his audience will intuit that he's full of crap, or do you smack him down?
Ignoring him is the easiest and most logical choice...If he wants to dance naked and shoot firecrackers out his As$ let him..Im still getting drunk and having fun....You are right, passive aggressive..youre teetering on one side or another..supporting his arguments and mine, making sure you dont step on either one of our toes..My question is whats the point of this..this was carried over from another forum..like Cdeakle said..let it go!
 
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you guys sure are responding alot for a topic you claim is of so little importance to you :wink:
 

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