Why is end user certification so bad?

[SPC]

Welcome back Bill, hope you had a good trip.

Posted by Mary:
The only things that I am aware must be "certified" are things that involve human life- scuba, driving, etc... and frankly, that's the way it should be.


- This belief that human life is more important than other life is why the worlds ecosystem is in such bad shape to begin with.

Bill, I think certification is indeed a good idea if it could be run properly. I am also not opossed to this certification being used for all animals. I think we have reached a point in history where the civilized world is begining to understand the connection between all life on earth. The profits from these certifications could be used to promote this idea even further. Once again I come back to hunting and fishing licenses when we are discussing this subject. Since these licenses have been required animals have benefited greatly both game and non game. The moneys that have been generated have funded both educational programs as well as habitat protection, it has been a huge success.
Now, if certification means that 95% of the people will not get into the hobby, then I say so be it. If it means that prices for dry goods as well as live stock would increase dramatically then that is just the cost of being in this hobby.
If people are not willing to educate themselves enough so that they can properly care for another living creature, then they shouldn't be allowed to own them.
Steve

 

[Bill2]

Why is end user certification so bad?

It would solve many problems faced in the hobby today.

1. Overall Education level would rise. People wouldn't buy skiliters and wonder why they cant' keep 20 fish in a 20 gallon.

2. Would force those that are not truly interested in the hobby to either put up or shut up. Get certified or you can't buy animals. Or hire a maintainance guy that is certified.

3. Would create a system of self regulation. It would be the reponsability of the end user to get certified. It would be the reponsability of the lfs to ask for the cert card. Heck even create a small force of watchdogs in every city. Volunteers that would go into Shop A and see if they can buy fish without a cert card. If they can, report back to the certifying agency and state the shop is in violation. If it gets too many violations but them on a black list. Notice I sated nothing about conditions in the shop. It would take no $$$$ for the shop owner to enroll in the program. Circulate the black list to the wholesalers and with a united front the lfs will have to comply.

3. There is an outward appearance to change with little or no investment to the industry.


With technology today. Cert Course could be given online. Cards could be sent out from a central location. And tracking could be kept in basic databases.

I would guess it would take less than $50,000 to create this agency. Hell make it a non-profit so you can get donations.

I'm sure more thoughts will pop into my head but since I just flew 1/2 round the world i'm a bit scatterbrained.

Bill

 

[MaryHM]

Welcome back Bill!

My main concern is that this is an impulse buy hobby. I would venture to guess that less than 1% of the hobbyists buy a book, educate themselves, then start purchasing animals. I would also venture to guess that that is not the method all of you used when you first entered the hobby. The other 99% go into a pet store, see the pretty fishies, and decide they must have some. Of that 99%, maybe 5% would take the time to go through a certification course. I'm afraid the other 93% would just say "Forget it- not worth the trouble". You can't force a certification on the end consumer in this industry. If you did, you'd be setting a precedence and opening up a big old can of worms- everyone having any kind of pet would have to be certified. The only things that I am aware must be "certified" are things that involve human life- scuba, driving, etc... and frankly, that's the way it should be.

 

[Anonymous]

"I'd like to get a license for my pet fish Eric."


Personally I'm seriously opposed to it. Legislation RARELY does anything but generate revenue. Now SPC makes a point with hunting and fishing licenses because most State Fish & Game's are rabid about protecting the revenues they generate and keep the monies for related uses. However it's the reveue generated that protects most game not the actual education since that is usually more firearm safety weighted i.e. how not to shoot Cletus when getting in and out of your tree stand.

The problem being, who will be collecting the revenue and enforcing it? NOAA? State Fish & Game's are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to such things.

Enforcement Bill cannot be done by "volunteers" just look at the pissing matches that occur on these boards when someone gets a wild hair up their rear about how LFS "X" treated them poorly or whatnot. You then have to have someone watchdog the volunteers to make sure they are being vindictive. Thus enforcement would have to be done by a paid employee of the controlling agency so now we have the Fish Police. IMO the LAST thing we need is ANOTHER federal agency. Hell did you know HUD has it's own SWAT team? EPA too.

I say the above also thinking that such certification could be another revenue stream for the LFS as classes and education could be offered.

Finally what are the standards and practices gonna be? Even basic knowledge is hotly debated, hell you should the crap that flies on the AMDA email list, nothing is "standard" in this hobby. Take any thread on this or any other board and if someone asks a question and gets 10 replies, all 10 will be in basic agreement until the eleventh, when some knucklehead posts that he's done something the opposite way "for years"

.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think if we come up with a sample test, one might see how difficult this science is to pin down? Less people in this hobby due to testing would harm the reefs by making Industrial mining and food fish the only other use for the Coral reefs......Coral reefs are damaged the most where people have no use for the Live coral? Tonga is a good example, the Islanders are too lazy to fish much but the ease of coral harvest means they want a healthy reef.....and wont let anyone blastfish or Cyanide their coral because the live Coral is more important then the reef fish..............The Philippines have the opposite mentality.....they dont collect much coral and only fish . So blast and Juice the coral at will they do!
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Morphine Rehab Forum

 

[MaryHM]

Here's the problem with using hunting and fishing licenses as an example. I can go down to Sport Chalet and buy my license to go trout fishing in King's Canyon. All I have to do is plop down the $30 or so bucks and they hand me back a paper with a stamp on it. What Bill is talking about is a certification program to EDUCATE hobbyists, requiring a certain amount of training prior to purchase (like in SCUBA- no training, no air fills). Hunting and fishing licenses don't require this. I don't have to prove that I know how to bait a hook, that I know a rainbow trout from a brown trout, or that I even know the regulations in place for fishing (size and bait restrictions). So you see, it's kind of an apples to oranges thing.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kings Canyon! Its an un spoiled Yosimite! Below the Cave its artificial Flies only and above live bait, Do You really fish there Mary? Anyway, What kind of test would we suggest for certification ?
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Earthquake insurance Forum

 

[SPC]

Posted by Mary:
So you see, it's kind of an apples to oranges thing.

Mary, in the state of Ga anyone under the age of 16 (or maybe 18?) needs to take a hunter safety class and pass a test before they are able to obtain a hunting licence. I do undestand that this class is meant for the safety of humans, but I don't see it as to much of a stretch to apply this same principal to marine animals and others.
I am also not naive enough to believe such a certification will come about in my lifetime, but I do believe that I will live to see the day when marine animals are banned for import into the US. Would a certification program have helped to stem the tide of an import ban, maybe.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Steve, care to be the only one MIGHTY enough to come up with the twenty questions that might be on this test?
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Honda CL125

 

[SPC]

Kalk, I don't think I should go that alone but I will give what I think should be the first question:
1. Copper
A. Should be used to treat diseased fish that are housed with invertebrates.
B. Should not be used to treat diseased fish that are housed with invertebrates.
Steve

 

[Bill2]

Thanks all for the welcome back

Mary,
I would hope impulse buying is less than 95% but, isn't it the impluse buyers that invariably kill everything. Those that say forget it it's not worth the trouble probably won't be in the hobby not long at all. I guess those impulse buys are good for the lfs because it generates sales but is it good for the hobby? I also think those that are explained why there is a certain process to go through would understand.

Tom,
I'm definatly not talking about legislation or government involvement. When I say agency I mean a private one whoose sole biz is to keep track of the cert process. Kinda like PADI is (simple explination). When I say volunteer I mean a group of people maybe just 1 in small cities and 3-4 in large ones to be paid in some way, might not be money. These volunteers would also have to pass some form of advanced test so it is made sure they are an advanced aquarist. It doesn't really matter to check if someone is selling illegal fish but advanced knowledge usually indicats a willing to stay in the hobby for a while. These people particpate for a certain time frame and then can choose to continue are not.

Remember I proposed a certification for just the end user. I'm sure a commitee can come up with 30 questions that can be agreed by most people. Maybe find out what the most popluar book out there is and then create a test from that and provide the end user with a book when they take the Cert class. I know if i was payign $100 or $80 or what ever the cost was and recieved a book it would be an easier pill to swallow.

Would this be a flawless system no. I think the one sticking point is the need for a black list. Wholesalers would have to abide by the blacklist. If they don't there is no realy reprocussions beyond the bad press.

 

[suckair]

I have been preaching certifications for about 2 years now! It needs to happen!

I don't think they should be required for captive raised animals such as clown fish and many others including corals that are captive. That way the n00bs who want in can get in fast but if they want to keep cool stuff they are required to get a cert!

It is all a good idea but the public won't fund this with government money as they could care less about people wanting to keep aquariums. It would have to be a self regulating grass roots effort and I sadly don't see it ever happening.

If I were KING it wold of already happened!

 

[danmhippo]

2 types of certification:
1. Certification to get into the hobby, more like fishing license where anyone with $$ can get one, or a more improved such as hunting license, but with $$, poeple can still get one.
2. Proficiency type of license such as MCSE. One that would segragate regular hobbist from the trained hobbyst. With the certification, person can work in the industry and perform maintenance on tank for $$. Proper certification also grants purchase of specific species.

Which one is y'all talking about now?

 

[MaryHM]

Posted by suckair:

I have been preaching certifications for about 2 years now! It needs to happen!

I don't think they should be required for captive raised animals such as clown fish and many others including corals that are captive. That way the n00bs who want in can get in fast but if they want to keep cool stuff they are required to get a cert!

We need to determine what the purpose of the certification is. Is it to "save the reefs" or is it to insure ethical husbandry of aquarium animals?? If it's an ethical issue, then why is it ok for people to needlessly kill captive bred animals under the dictates of your "kingdom"?? :wink: If it's to save the reefs, that a lot of paperwork and bother for something that really isn't going to make that big of a difference anyway. So a hobbyist obtains a certificate to be able to keep wild caught species. Oh goodie!! Bring in the cheap cyanide caught critters!! Multiple problems here people, no easy quick fixes.

 

[SPC]

I agree with what you are saying Mary, but :wink: I still think some of the money spent in this hobby should go towards reef conservation. This is the main reason I like the fishing/hunting license idea.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

3. Would create a system of self regulation. It would be the reponsability of the end user to get certified. It would be the reponsability of the lfs to ask for the cert card. Heck even create a small force of watchdogs in every city. Volunteers that would go into Shop A and see if they can buy fish without a cert card. If they can, report back to the certifying agency and state the shop is in violation. If it gets too many violations but them on a black list. Notice I sated nothing about conditions in the shop. It would take no $$$$ for the shop owner to enroll in the program. Circulate the black list to the wholesalers and with a united front the lfs will have to comply.

This is regulating the retailer not the end user. So I have a card, how does this stop me from putting copper in with my inverts? It doesn't. How does this stop the newbie that is excited at the beginning, does everything right for the first 6 months then gets lazy and starts to ignore thier "duties" to their tank.

The only way to regulate the end user would be to go into their house and view their tanks/setup/husbandry. This is an impossible task.

 

[JennM]

I would rather see people requiring "certification" to have BABIES before they would have to be certified to keep an aquarium....

You have all brought up the very reasons why this would NOT be practical...

Most of us don't want another government agency sucking up our money.
Volunteer organizations might have their own agendas, and become more inclined to "blacklist" a retailer out of some sort of revenge.
I doubt if we could get 30 people to agree on the answers to 20 questions...

Unfortunatley in these forums it is easy to get wrapped up in our little bubble of informed (or wanting to be informed) hobbyists, and forget that there are 3 times as many "fish tank owners" (NOT hobbyists in that sense) who don't give a rat's patootie about any of this. Does that mean they all needlessly kill things? NO. Plenty of people have enough common sense to learn just enough to not kill things....some are just lucky.

In any case, if you require certification or regulation by any means or definition, you are getting onto a VERY slippery slope. Enforcement at the end user level is nearly impossible, unless the fish police make house calls...

Jenn