"Without a realiable CDT test... "

[Ad van Tage]

Ever since I started reading threads on this forum I have been puzzled, surprised, and baffled about the recurring theme of "Without a realiable CDT test... "

Lately there has been some amazing data about "poissons" in wild and farmed salmon in the news. It is simply astounding what labs around the world are able to determine, in as far as chemicals [PCBs etc. etc. ] in both wild and farmed salmon!
At the same time I am reading about advances in the science to detect abuse of synthetic HGH [ a hormone!!! ] in athletes who like all of us have natural HGH in their systems also...

Which leads me to the problem at hand in the "MO trade".

I am not a bio-chemist, so I can not really state a learned specialist opinion about fact or fiction in this area of what ALL can possibly be detected. However based on my work and experience, and what I read, I have to say that I find it very very hard indeed to swallow the idea that a reliable CDT can not be performed. [ More on "is not available" later. ]

Did I misread about all the testing that has in fact been done on fish(ies) in PI... and other places? Surely people who have been doing these tests have not been faking or spiking their results! Yes, I am aware that fish and fishies "excrete" a great deal of the poisson, however, there are other telltale signs that - technically speaking - can be measured, or?

So if "a reliable test is not available", does that statement mean that NO-ONE is bothering to have tests done? Or that it is technically not feasible?

Aside from the above, has anyone seriously looked into the feasibiity of testing fish on arrival at the importers' doorsteps?

Anyone care to "enlighten" me?

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~

"Where there is a will,
.... there is a way!"


NOTE: Suggesting that [reliable] cyanide detection tests are not available - for either above stated reason - seems to me to be in line with the baseless - and ceaseless - assertions by our "friend" Kalkbreath that cyanide is not really a problem in the MO business...

 

[mkirda]

However based on my work and experience, and what I read, I have to say that I find it very very hard indeed to swallow the idea that a reliable CDT can not be performed. [ More on "is not available" later. ]

Did I misread about all the testing that has in fact been done on fish(ies) in PI... and other places? Surely people who have been doing these tests have not been faking or spiking their results! Yes, I am aware that fish and fishies "excrete" a great deal of the poisson, however, there are other telltale signs that - technically speaking - can be measured, or?

So if "a reliable test is not available", does that statement mean that NO-ONE is bothering to have tests done? Or that it is technically not feasible?

Aside from the above, has anyone seriously looked into the feasibiity of testing fish on arrival at the importers' doorsteps?

Anyone care to "enlighten" me?

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~

"Where there is a will,
.... there is a way!"


NOTE: Suggesting that [reliable] cyanide detection tests are not available - for either above stated reason - seems to me to be in line with the baseless - and ceaseless - assertions by our "friend" Kalkbreath that cyanide is not really a problem in the MO business...

Ad,

There is a test run by BFAR. Basically, you need to liquify a fish, add some chemicals to digest portions, then measure the cyanide levels. Peter Rubec is most involved in the internal workings of the test- I have never looked at it at the chemical level.

MAC is the source of the information on 'unreliability' of this testing method. They apparently paid to have the testing procedure reviewed and the results were not great. IMA, who was running the labs at the time for BFAR, argued strenuously and most vociferously against the panel's findings. I'm not sure any of those e-mails ever went public. 8O

I am still unsure of what MAC was trying to accomplish with the review.
It doesn't appear that they had designs on running the labs, nor have they pulled a rabbit out of their hat in the form of having another alternative test ready either. Merck and BFAR were working to look at the existing method vs. looking into other methods. Everyone here is still waiting for those results to be made public. From what I understand, so is MAC... I don't think anyone had any idea when Merck started that it would be this long.

Now, about the existing test. You have to understand some things. The tests are in labs, which exist in large cities. The fish are nowhere near the large cities when first caught, so this entails sending them long distances at great expense, often without a budget, for testing. If the fish are held for a couple of days, the evidence is mostly excreted.

I just finished re-reading Dante Dalabajan's paper on the Economics of Enforcement in Coron. Want a sobering statistic?
Estimated 400,000 incidents of cyanide or blast fishing in and around the Calamian Islands over three years.
Total of 40 arrests.
4 convictions.
Civil penalties are less than what they would generally make cyanide fishing for a day. Imagine parking tickets costing less than parking lots...
And the meter maids are volunteers who have to pay for their blank tickets... And there is no mechanism for reimbursement for their expenses...

The mayor of Coron wanted to establish a CDT in his town.
They couldn't find a chemist willing to relocate, even with incentives like free housing.

There is so much more going on than people here realize.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Ad van Tage]

.........................

Anyone care to "enlighten" me?
_________________

"Where there is a will,
.... there is a way!"

NOTE: Suggesting that [reliable] cyanide detection tests are not available - for either above stated reason - seems to me to be in line with the baseless - and ceaseless - assertions by our "friend" Kalkbreath that cyanide is not really a problem in the MO business...

Ad,
There is a test run by BFAR. Basically, you need to liquify a fish, add some chemicals to digest portions, then measure the cyanide levels.
Peter Rubec is most involved in the internal workings of the test- I have never looked at it at the chemical level.

MAC is the source of the information on 'unreliability' of this testing method.
They apparently paid to have the testing procedure reviewed and the results were not great.(1)
IMA, who was running the labs at the time for BFAR, argued strenuously and most vociferously against the panel's(2) findings.
I'm not sure any of those e-mails ever went public.(3) 8O

I am still unsure of what MAC was trying to accomplish with the review.(4)
It doesn't appear that they had designs on running the labs,
nor have they pulled a rabbit out of their hat in the form of having another alternative test ready either.
Merck(5) and BFAR were working to look at the existing method vs. looking into other methods.
Everyone here is still waiting for those results to be made public.(6)
From what I understand, so is MAC...
I don't think anyone had any idea when Merck(5) started that it would be this long.

Now, about the existing test. (7)
You have to understand some things.
The tests are in labs, which exist in large cities.
The fish are nowhere near the large cities when first caught,
so this entails sending them long distances at great expense,
often without a budget, for testing.
If the fish are held for a couple of days, the evidence is mostly excreted. (7)
............ see part 2

What an interesting perspective, Mike! So it appears that the MAC "provided" the "facts(?)" that "the tests" were "unreliable".
Does that mean that anyone stating that "NO RELIABLE TEST is available" is regurgitating unsupported statements?
[ From your description, the "data to back up the MAC claim" is AWOL...; although IMA protested the results(?). ]

Would be interesting to know too what is ment by "the tests". Are these the tests as executed by BFAR, the tests as done by IMA???

Holy Hanna, surely when we can detect stimulants in athletes, that are designed to be hard to detect, we can bloody detect [sodium] cyanide in fish(ies).

Now , what of a test, once the fish are landed at the importer's place of business :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Why, with ALL the problems that have been identified in situ in PI, is there no strong movement to do the checks on entry to NA?

Are we waiting for conservation minded organisations or people to push for a CITES like international agreement on banning importation of cyanide caught fish???

At this point in time, I, - in fact every one who flies - have to pay surcharges for just about everything that hangs around an airline ticket. That includes fees for close inspection of my bags, the heels of my shoes... well we all know the routine. It aint pretty, and on the last ticket I bought those "misc." charges about doubled the fair, i.e. my costs!!! ....

Would it not pay for "The Industry Behind The Hobby" to get on the stick, before we see THAT happening in the importation of marine aquarium creatures???

_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~



1) How do "we" know, if the results have not been published???
2) Who is or are the "panel"?
3) Does anyone here have copies?
4) Has that question been put to the MAC directly by anyone?
Would the MASNA representative know? Would MASNA know?
5) Who or what is Merck?
6) Why just wait? Why not find or propose alternatives?
7) Yes I have heard all the "reasons" before...

 

[MaryHM]

Ad,

Do a search on here. There were lots of discussions about the BFAR test and MAC's claims of "unreliability".

 

[Ad van Tage]

Ad van Tage: ..........
_________________
"Where there is a will,
.... there is a way!"
..................................

.............................................

I just finished re-reading Dante Dalabajan's paper on the Economics of Enforcement in Coron.
Want a sobering statistic?
Estimated 400,000 incidents of cyanide or blast fishing in and around the Calamian Islands over three years.
Total of 40 arrests.
4 convictions.
Civil penalties are less than what they would generally make cyanide fishing for a day.
Imagine parking tickets costing less than parking lots...
And the meter maids are volunteers who have to pay for their blank tickets...
And there is no mechanism for reimbursement for their expenses...

The mayor of Coron wanted to establish a CDT in his town.
They couldn't find a chemist willing to relocate,
even with incentives like free housing.

There is so much more going on than people here realize.

"There is so much more going on than people here realize."

Wel Mike I think you have hit the nail on the head. When last I was in Palawan, a Taiwanese fishing boat was caught and chained up at the docks, under guard. It had been caught with barrels of cyanide on board. At first I detected some euphoria amongst the volunteer "Environmental Protection Officer" I was with. That evaporated , along with the boat and the crew, a few days later. Reason for the boat's disappearance we heard was "payola"... A reality which most of us may find startling. I don't know how one says "C'est la vie" in Tagalog... but I am sure it's there!


Given all that, I would suggest that we need to re-examen where and how the testing is done!!!
Especially given that reportedly the MAC has certified exporters who flout the rules.
Why not take a leaf out of the book of the Canadian Government in the manner in which
they deal with airlines that land passengers without proper papers. A stiff fee is assessed.
[ I think abt. C$50,000 per case ]

So make it an offense to import OR trade cyanide caught fish
[ I AM SURE THAT THERE ARE TESTS!!!
even after most obvious evidence has "floated away" ]
which will get you a fine of that magnitude,
and I guarantee that there will be a REAL push on to stop the cyanide crap!

DID JOSEF STEIGER GO AFTER THE SWISS GOVERNMENT TO STOP THE TRADE???



___________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~

 

[Anonymous]

Merck is a testing (& other holdings) lhuge company, like Hanna or Hach.

I believe theres more to it then "pissing away" (although athletes piss away doping results as do cranked out truck drivers) results. From what has been told to me, cyanide breaks down into another form, which is what they're loooking for. That substance is also "naturally occuring" or can (or has) be argued as being so. That being that, some have questioned the real legality of such a test being that nature itself can give a false negative. I know Peter is going to set me straight on this, but I sure hope he notes where I said thats what I've been told. I make no claims to know much about the CTD, the science or politics, other then whats been told to me or put into print on the net).

 

[PeterIMA]

I explained at length in previous postings that the CDT done by IMA was reliable and was the method developed by the American Society of Testing and Materials (ASTM) and endorsed by numerous other agencies such as the American Publich Health Association (APHA) and USEPA. The MAC appointed a panel to review the Standard Operating Proceedure (SOP) based on the ASTM method that was being used by IMA's chemists (in six laboratories funded by BFAR). A consultant for the MAC did a lousy job in trying to repeat the proceedure, and reached false conclusions (that the test was unreliable). I provided the MAC with a 30 page rebuttal to the flawed report created by Paul Holthus. This clearly demonstrated that the MAC's conclusions were completely wrong. The MAC never acknowledged this and has not produced a test of any kind (despite consultations with Merck and BFAR). The MAC has no expertise in this area. They did succeed in destroying IMA's credability and the CDT network. So, those in the trade (including Americans) can be happy that Philippine laws are not being enforced. The CDT is still being run to a limited degree by BFAR in 3 laboratories, but appears to be focused mostly on food fish. There is no random sampling etc. Anyway, enough said. Consult my previous postings. But, don't say that the test was unreliable.That is totally false.

 

[PeterIMA]

MAC considers their review of the CDT SOP report "confidential". I have provided it and my rebuttal to several people on this forum (SciGuy and to Mike Kirda). They can comment on the materials if they want to.

Peter

 

[mkirda]

Wel Mike I think you have hit the nail on the head. When last I was in Palawan, a Taiwanese fishing boat was caught and chained up at the docks, under guard. It had been caught with barrels of cyanide on board. At first I detected some euphoria amongst the volunteer "Environmental Protection Officer" I was with. That evaporated , along with the boat and the crew, a few days later. Reason for the boat's disappearance we heard was "payola"... A reality which most of us may find startling. I don't know how one says "C'est la vie" in Tagalog... but I am sure it's there!

The Philippine government doesn't want to upset Taiwan/China too much.
After a Chinese crew member perished in the jail in Puerto Princessa after being sentenced, the Philippines had a bit of egg on its face. They let the rest of the crew go (without paying their fines), and they were flown out by the Taiwanese government immediately. It is a five to ten year sentence, of which they served only a few months. Obviously, the government has to weigh the consequences when imprisoning foreigners, but these Taiwanese boats are caught so often off Palawan that having the government let the crew members go sends the wrong message to the Taiwanese boat captains, as well as to the marine patrol officers.

Payola? Maybe so. Political pressure from Malacanang is more likely though, IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda