Skeptical about: "Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 2 - Magic in a Bottle By Richard Ross"

[Warrior24_7]

Skeptical about: "Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 2 - Magic in a Bottle By Richard Ross"

Hi all, I'm new here and this is my first post.

Let me first start by saying that I did not read part 1. But after reading "Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 2 - Magic in a Bottle By Richard Ross" I chuckled and came away skeptical myself. I did this because I felt the article underserved it's intended audience. It did little more than bash, and missed some chances to right some "perceived" wrongs and give insight to what actually "does" work! That is the important thing, what does work?!! Some questions came to mind as I read the article.

1. How many products did the author use to make such claims?
2. Does he use any products now? If so which ones?
3. Did he do any independent testing and reviewing of anything?!!
4. Did he contact any companies to find out how they verified such claims?
5. What "does" work?!!
6. Does Manhattan Reefs carry any of these non-working products?

All of this could've been done without the fear of a lawsuit. If a company doesn't provide you with any data, then don't recommend the product, or carry it in your store! It's as simple as that! Hold reviews of a few like products an test them. Post the results and simply state "this product out-performed that one" or "we don't recommend this product", and the reasons why. This is done all-the-time in other magazines. No reason to fear a lawsuit. State the reasons why people suddenly find themselves in trouble and feel the need to use these products, or how to avoid using them. The truth is that people over feed, over stock, don't change their water, don't quarantine, and don't have any patience, this INVITES trouble! The majority of these product are produced to counter these mistakes.

So it also depends on the hobbyist, if he/she continues bad practices, then of course the products won't work, or won't work as effectively. You said that you care about the fish and your wallet! But care about the hobbyist first! Why first? Because the fish are out of the ocean and are not going back, they're going into some hobbyist's tank! A better informed and knowledgable hobbyist would be better equipped to keep his fish alive! As it stand right now this hobby is full of "tribal knowledge", basically everybody has what works for them and they pass that along or they pass along what they've "heard", read or seen somewhere. There are some truths don't get me wrong, but it would be nice to know what products actually "worked" and which ones didn't. Try and think about that for part 3.

 

[prattreef]

Welcome to Manhattan Reefs. Thanks for reading and responding thoughtfully to the article. I'll make sure the author sees your comments and perhaps he'll respond.

Randy

 

[Warrior24_7]

Thanks, I hope he responds. You don't know what I or other hobbyists would give to walk into a store and "know" what works and what doesn't. Currently I do my best not to need any "quick fix" chemical help. But I did always wonder about some of that bottled invert food.

 

[jaa1456]

I have read a few of Ross's articles, not the one mentioned above though, And I always feel like he leaves so much out. I don't know if it is on purpose or the fact that he just dosen't know.

 

[Warrior24_7]

I totally understand the point of the article, don't be a victim of advertising (at least thats what I thought it was). But people become victims of it when they lack the knowledge to make a good purchase decision. We can clear that up in articles like this. Let's face it, the stores are there to "sell". If you need nitrate remover, they'll sell it to you and not ask about your tank at all. In Some cases the clerk knows no more than the hobbyist and sometimes less! I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is at least "experienced", but that doesn't mean he knows everything either. In our hobby we are required to do alot of testing and monitoring, so it should be easy to use or test a few products and post the results. Because saying something "doesn't" work without any verification is no different as saying that something "does" without any verification!

If anyone has any experience with the supplement industry (body building, ect), then you know full well that the stuff is not regulated by the FDA. Most of the stuff that is "known" to work well is banned from competitive use. If you didn't know, just read the lable and look for the asterix at the bottom, there should be at least two. One talking about the FDA and one about daily allowances. Will the stuff work for you? Basically its a crap shoot. If our hobby is full of products like this then we need to know about it. So I'm curious about his experiences and what he has to say.

 

[ellebelle]

I actually do agree with this - it is certainly possible to test a product and report the results of said test without fear of legal retribution. However, it can get expensive to do so and I think went beyond the scope of this article.

But I open it up to the floor - what products have people around here used and what were their experiences? I'd be interested to know from other people than just Rich Ross; after all, a larger sample size will result in better data!

Personally, the only reef additive I have ever used was phytoplankton. I had some non-photosynthetic gorgonians at one time and was told (quite wrongly, I believe now) that phytoplankton was a good food source for them. I found that it increased my nitrates and my gorgonian still died. I have never used it again and I only keep photosynthetic gorgonians now.

I've used two kinds of food additives - garlic and selcon. I've soaked mysis, pellet and flake food in those substance while fighting disease. I'm not sure I ever saw any visible results of it working, but it didn't seem to hurt my water parameters. In that case, I'd rather do it in case it gives some benefit than not do it at all.

Finally, I've also used PraziPro in place of flatworm exit because it comes in huge bottles and claims to kill flatworms. It does indeed kill red planaria flatworms and it will not harm your coral. Thousands of red planaria flatworms will however do damage to your fish and coral.

Anyone else?

 

[prattreef]

The Skeptical Reefkeping series is not intended as a product review forum. It is a series about critical thinking and reasoning as an aid to making informed choices without much real data beyond manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters of unknown experience and background.

I actually doubt the author dosagrees with much that is said above except perhaps the getting sued part

 

[Thales]

Thanks for reading the article and taking the time to respond. I just got back from MACNA, have to go into work but thought I would take a quick stab. If you have specific questions please let me know.

My intended point of the article was specifically not to go over products one at a time - "I have stayed away from discussing specific products. My purpose in writing these articles is not to pick on any one product or company (though a debunking team of independent 'Reefbusters'™ would be fun - anyone interested in funding such a project let me know)…<snip>...My real purpose in these articles is to get us all thinking and to give us tools to navigate the information that is constantly thrown at us."

Doing real, robust trials on any product is going to take time, money and facilities that I don't have at this time. Its got to be more than anecdote which was covered in part 1. I hope the Reefbusters idea gains some traction, but for it to be useful, its going to need to be much more than people running a few simple trials. Although...setting up a group to review the trials people are willing to run could be helpful too. But, again, its going to be slow going with no funding if it is going to be more than opinion.

I do have to disagree with you about the lawsuit issue. Having been on the receiving end of a Scary Lawyer Letter that was baseless, I know first hand the fear and expense of being trapped into litigation. Just defending yourself against a lawsuit can wreck an individual while a company with deeper pockets has no problem - sometimes that is actually the goal. So before exposing myself or my family to that kind of thing, I would need some protection, which is where the Reefbusters idea comes in.

I am happy to go over what I think works and what doesn't, but that kind of information is already all over the internet, and IME people need tools to be able to decide how to decide what to trust. This is in part what led to this particular series of articles.

I am much more interested in helping people develop their own saltwater thumb than in telling them what I think works and what I think doesn't work. Our systems are complex and ever changing and I don't think following a particular recipe is particularly useful or helps build solid long term reefers.

I am hoping the above answers your general points. If it doesn't please let me know, and if you have specifics please let me know that as well. Thanks again!

 

[ellebelle]

The Skeptical Reefkeping series is not intended as a product review forum. It is a series about critical thinking and reasoning as an aid to making informed choices without much real data beyond manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters of unknown experience and background.

But Randy, don't you think a discussion of products is a reasonable outgrowth of that particular article in an informal setting? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[Thales]

Because saying something "doesn't" work without any verification is no different as saying that something "does" without any verification!

I hope you didn't think that what I was saying! My point was that you should have a neutral stance towards products/methods that people write about. And if we are trying new things because they are 'new' we need more evidence than 'my corals look better'.

 

[Thales]

I have read a few of Ross's articles, not the one mentioned above though, And I always feel like he leaves so much out. I don't know if it is on purpose or the fact that he just dosen't know.

I would need to know particulars to really address this. But, in general, when I write I am more interested in getting people to think instead of spoon feeding them my opinion. I think people are better reefers when they understand the why's, or lack of why's, instead of just the hows.

A lot of information in our hobby is really opinion. I try when I write not to state my opinion as fact because it isn't and I think that distinction is very important.


I do have to thank Reefs Magazine for encouraging me to write some different kinds of reefing articles. I think its refreshing and important and hope others find it the same.

 

[Thales]

But Randy, don't you think a discussion of products is a reasonable outgrowth of that particular article in an informal setting? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Yes and no. I think it would be fantastic using the methods of skeptical thinking discussed in the articles. There are inherent problems using anecdote to determine the effectiveness of products/methods and a continuing discussion about it would be fun.

So, if its OK with Randy, lets do it and I'll really try to keep up with it.

 

[Thales]

Personally, the only reef additive I have ever used was phytoplankton. I had some non-photosynthetic gorgonians at one time and was told (quite wrongly, I believe now) that phytoplankton was a good food source for them. I found that it increased my nitrates and my gorgonian still died. I have never used it again and I only keep photosynthetic gorgonians now.

Yep. It looks like most gorgonians need food much larger and more meaty than phyto, but it really depends on species.

I've used two kinds of food additives - garlic and selcon. I've soaked mysis, pellet and flake food in those substance while fighting disease. I'm not sure I ever saw any visible results of it working, but it didn't seem to hurt my water parameters. In that case, I'd rather do it in case it gives some benefit than not do it at all.

There seems to be no support for Garlic having any effect on fish. I'd have to look it up again, but though people sometimes seem to really want it to work, it just doesn't do anything besides making people feel like they are doing something. Selcon like products were introduced to help restore fatty acids to frozen/live foods that were supposed to have lower nutritional profiles. It is unclear whether this was true or needed or not.

Finally, I've also used PraziPro in place of flatworm exit because it comes in huge bottles and claims to kill flatworms. It does indeed kill red planaria flatworms and it will not harm your coral. Thousands of red planaria flatworms will however do damage to your fish and coral.

Which corals did you use it with and at what dose?

 

[Warrior24_7]

The Skeptical Reefkeping series is not intended as a product review forum. It is a series about critical thinking and reasoning as an aid to making informed choices without much real data beyond manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters of unknown experience and background.

I actually doubt the author dosagrees with much that is said above except perhaps the getting sued part
_________________
That is my point. When you're new, or using a new product, how DO YOU make an informed choice "without" much real data beyond manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters of unknown experience and background? That, I guess includes...the author! Answer: You can't. Would you invest your money or receive medical care under those conditions? Nope! So it's back to trial and error and tribal knowledge. This leads to mistakes, wasted money and dead livestock. Something that the author said he cared about. I dunno, maybe as I read it I expected a little more out of the article then he could give. I didn't expect a product review forum, but I really feel that the article missed an opportunity and missed it's mark. Thats why I'm curious about his experiences and how he came to those conclusions. I had hoped he could shed some light on what does work at least.

We have to agree to disagree on the lawsuits. If that were the case, Consumer Report, CPU magazine, and Maximum PC (just to name a few) would have been sued out of business along time ago.

 

[prattreef]

But Randy, don't you think a discussion of products is a reasonable outgrowth of that particular article in an informal setting? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

A discussion of products is always reasonable and, in fact, what I think a great majority of us spend most of our time on these forums doing. But, such discussion is nearly always anecdotal and as a scientist yourself, you know full well the limits of anecdotal evidence. I say this not to dismiss anecdote as valuable data, but simply to point out that Rich's point is how do you go about
evaluating this kind of data or really any kind of data presented in the hobby? Information on discussion boards is even more problematic to give weight to as posters are anonymous and unless you know, you don't know who the poster is or what experience or expertise they have, and thus what weight to give their opinion.

The series of articles is intended to give reefers a few more tools in their bag, an approach or critical lens in the parlance of academia to begin to evaluate all this stuff. That is my only point, and I think Rich's main intent as well.

 

[ellebelle]

Yep. It looks like most gorgonians need food much larger and more meaty than phyto, but it really depends on species.

[snip]

Which corals did you use it with and at what dose?

My gorgonians certainly love cyclopeez. I'll have to find one of my old photos that shows one of the bushier ones eating cyclopeez. I've also seen the ones with larger polyps eat small bits of mysis. Hmm, will hunt.

I've used it at the recommended dose on the bottle - 1 tsp per 20 gallons. After my last experience, I actually dose my tank with it after I put any new coral in it just to be on the safe side. I've had SPS, LPS, softies, and inverts (harlequin shrimp, peppermint shrimp and fan worms) and never had a problem. Dom used to dose his tank with it too and he had all kinds of sensitive fish. I've never seen it bother anything but flatworms. I suspect whatever it in flatworm exit is related to praziquantel but I've never been able to find an ingredient list (anyone know?). PraziPo is less than 5% praziquantel and oxybisproponol as an inert solubilizing agent (according to the bottle).

 

[prattreef]

The more I read this thread, the more I feel we are all pretty much in agreement. The truth is the research and evidence we all woukd like to see just isn't isn' there in the main, largerly due to funding and and resources and time constraints for those actually qualified to do it.

Interestingly when a qualified and impartial individual does actually take the time to perform real research, the results are often ignored or vilified or mocked if they don't match the common wisdom of the moment. Dr. Ken Feldman's research on skimmers and Dissolved organic carbon come to mind.

 

[Thales]

My gorgonians certainly love cyclopeez. I'll have to find one of my old photos that shows one of the bushier ones eating cyclopeez. I've also seen the ones with larger polyps eat small bits of mysis. Hmm, will hunt.

I was just at a talk that went over sizes of gorgonian prey. My notes are at home though. Cyclops seems about right though.

I've used it at the recommended dose on the bottle - 1 tsp per 20 gallons. After my last experience, I actually dose my tank with it after I put any new coral in it just to be on the safe side. I've had SPS, LPS, softies, and inverts (harlequin shrimp, peppermint shrimp and fan worms) and never had a problem. Dom used to dose his tank with it too and he had all kinds of sensitive fish. I've never seen it bother anything but flatworms. I suspect whatever it in flatworm exit is related to praziquantel but I've never been able to find an ingredient list (anyone know?). PraziPo is less than 5% praziquantel and oxybisproponol as an inert solubilizing agent (according to the bottle).

Let me dig around with our vet tomorrow.

 

[Thales]

Oops! I am the author! Sorry that was unclear!

That is my point. When you're new, or using a new product, how DO YOU make an informed choice "without" much real data beyond manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence from anonymous posters of unknown experience and background?

That is kind of the point of the articles.

That, I guess includes...the author!

Of course!

Answer: You can't.

But you can make more educated decisions than just trusting what is written on a bottle by developing critical thinking skills and developing the idea that research before action is important regarding live animals kept at home.

Would you invest your money or receive medical care under those conditions? Nope!

People do just that all the time. There is a huge trade in 'alternative medicine' from acupuncture to ionic bracelets to special colonics to coral calcium pills to psychic surgery and more.

So it's back to trial and error and tribal knowledge. This leads to mistakes, wasted money and dead livestock. Something that the author said he cared about. I dunno, maybe as I read it I expected a little more out of the article then he could give. I didn't expect a product review forum, but I really feel that the article missed an opportunity and missed it's mark. Thats why I'm curious about his experiences and how he came to those conclusions. I had hoped he could shed some light on what does work at least.

I don't think I understand what more you wanted out of the article. Could you clarify and I'll try to respond to your concerns? My hope was to put more tools in the reefers tool box, not to tell them what to do.

FWIW, I have been involved in reef keeping for at least 25 years at all levels of the industry, and now work as a biologist at a public aquarium.

We have to agree to disagree on the lawsuits. If that were the case, Consumer Report, CPU magazine, and Maximum PC (just to name a few) would have been sued out of business along time ago.

Those are all multi billion dollar companies with huge legal departments and protections in place - quite different from the small (but fantastic!) Reefs Magazine.

 

[Thales]

The more I read this thread, the more I feel we are all pretty much in agreement. The truth is the research and evidence we all woukd like to see just isn't isn' there in the main, largerly due to funding and and resources and time constraints for those actually qualified to do it.

Yes! Everyone would like real, independent data, but it just isn't there. A Reefbusters group could help, but would also take a beating pretty much constantly.

Interestingly when a qualified and impartial individual does actually take the time to perform real research, the results are often ignored or vilified or mocked if they don't match the common wisdom of the moment. Dr. Ken Feldman's research on skimmers and Dissolved organic carbon come to mind.

And when something is shown pretty clearly not to work - herbal meds for crypto, the eco aqualizer, etc - people still continue to insist that they do work. It's just fascinating!