Session Start: Sat Feb 16 10:58:29 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 10:58:29 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 16 10:58:29 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[10] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[10] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
01[10] <java> good morning!
[10] <@mchia> Dear Jason,
[10] <@mchia> Many thanks for the valuable insights that you have given us over the weeks.
[10] <@mchia> I wonder if you could devote a little time to answer this question preferably this lecture, or else in the forum.
[10] <@mchia> From the last few lectures/readings, it is clear a central use of bacteria is get them to reduce nitrates in the reef tank. However, there is a cost to this as in the first lecture, you mentioned that more bacteria means more DOM. So:
[10] <@mchia> 1. Is there a way to use bacteria to reduce DOM the same way as nitrates, to complement skimming or activated carbon?
[10] <@mchia> 2. If there is no or little water change, how SPECIFICALLY from a biological especially microbiological viewpoint, will DOM harm corals and other livestock?
[10] <@mchia> 3. Can skimming or activated carbon adequately get rid of DOM without or with only minimal water change?
[10] <@mchia> I hope to get some answers that will help to reduce the need for frequent or large water changes. I am sure my fellow reefers will be interested too. Thanks again.
[10] <@mchia> mchia
[10] <@mchia> PS. A related question which I hope you don't mind address is that very commonly filter media companies advertise how large a surface area their media provides for bacterial growth. Could too large a surface area lead to more production of DOM, as well as the dreaded "nitrate factory"? And if so (i.e., if there are disadvantages of too much surface area from filter media and live rock also), how do we know when large is too large?
[11] <@mchia> Today I'm the operator again, the first person to login is the operator!
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o java
03[11] * wade ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o wade
01[11] <@java> awesome questions mchia
[11] <@mchia> I cut & pasted it from another file I was typing into, that's why it looks long.
01[11] <@java> I honestly do not think there is an easy way around DOM, at least from a microbiological perspective
01[11] <@java> since it comes from microbes just doing their thing
01[11] <@java> eating sloppily, dying, getting lysed by marine viruses (bacteriophages)
01[11] <@java> secreting slime coats for biofilms, etc.
01[11] <@java> HOWEVER
01[11] <@java> i thought that some soft corals untilized DOMs
01[11] <@java> utilized
01[11] <@java> perhaps similar to nitrogen uptake by xenia
01[11] <@java> but i think the reports of this are anecdotal
01[11] <@java> and the mechanisms, nutrient pathways are poorly understood
01[11] <@java> photosynthetic organisms can utilize DOMs as well
[11] <@wade> olaf: The fish husbandry is set to start April 7
01[11] <@java> macroalgaes, since plant cell wall constituents are complex sugars, these are assembled from carbon obtained from the environment and water column
01[11] <@java> so, bacteria can't really play a role in reducing DOMs
01[11] <@java> but i think it would be worthwhile to experiment and research how macroalgaes might do so in a closed system
[11] <olaf> thx wade
01[11] <@java> not sure if too much solid data exists on this though
[11] <olaf> I have done this with a 6-g nano and three type of macroalgae
[11] <olaf> I have not done a water change in 4 years
01[11] <@java> whoa
[11] <olaf> everything is balanced
01[11] <@java> gorgeous
[11] <olaf> I add new things but they end up getting eaten
[11] <olaf> which I thought would throw off the balance
01[11] <@java> mchia, question 2:
[11] <@mchia> Testing my connection.
[11] <olaf> but no just a trace
01[11] <@java> you're good mchia
02[11] * @mchia ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: mchia)
03[11] * mchia ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
[11] <olaf> I have long leaf caulerpa, short leaf caulerpa and Chaetomorpha Algae growing
[11] <olaf> I put only a few strands of Chaetomorpha Algae in and no there is a bunch same with the long leaf caulerpa
01[11] <@java> peoplpe freak out about caulerpa, but i used it in my first nano for nutrient export and i liked it a lot
01[11] <@java> it's pretty too
[11] <olaf> the short leaf is not growing just maintaining
01[11] <@java> oh mchia is back
[11] <olaf> short leaf can e bad
[11] <mchia> So should we limit bacteria growth to limit DOM?
[11] <olaf> I had one tank taken over by it until I added a sea egg (urchin) ad two long spine unchins
[11] <olaf> k
01[11] <@java> well, DOM can be good or bad depending
01[11] <@java> most aquatic organisms take up their nutrients directly from the water column
01[11] <@java> corals, plants, bacteria
01[11] <@java> and these DOMs are the source of building blocks for biosynthesis
01[11] <@java> so there has to be SOME present to support growth
01[11] <@java> but the problem comes in with exccess
01[11] <@java> because a subset of DOMs are nutrients
01[11] <@java> then it can fuel unwanted growth
01[11] <@java> cyano, algae
01[11] <@java> the term "DOM" refers to a large range of molecules and macromolecules
01[11] <@java> in it can be included phosphates and nitrogenous compounds
01[11] <@java> but also anything else synthesized by living organisms
01[11] <@java> like secreted proteins or signaling molecules
01[11] <@java> so in a coral tank, an accumulation of DOMs can mean accumulation of not only nutrients
01[11] <@java> which may or may not be deletereious depending on quantity
01[11] <@java> but also chemical warfare/communication molecules from corals
01[11] <@java> so to summarize for your second question
01[11] <@java> whether accumulation of DOMs is bad
01[11] <@java> for corals
01[11] <@java> it depends on
01[11] <@java> a) your setup, what corals you are keeping, particularly aggressive species or softies which are known to be noxious like Sinularia or similar
01[11] <@java> b) how much you let accumulate
01[11] <@java> just from a general feeling perspective, i don't think corals get too happy when the water gets really, really yellow
01[11] <@java> just my own opinion there
01[11] <@java> other things will factor in like light and temp, DOMs may fuel an algae growth if much of it is composed of phosphates
01[11] <@java> but i think you get the idea
01[11] <@java> as for your 3rd question, i think that skimming and carbon can do a good job of removing a lot of DOMs
01[11] <@java> however, remember how skimming functions
03[11] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <@java> it generally removes charged particulates, bith big and very small, complexes of molecules
01[11] <@java> based on the water/air interface interactions with bubbles
01[11] <@java> so highly dissolved organics won't be efficiently skimmed
[11] <walla2butterfly> (turned off alarm and fell back a sleep, sorry)
01[11] <@java> but carbon can remove those
01[11] <@java> HOWEVER
01[11] <@java> a couple considerations
01[11] <@java> a) carbon functions by adsorption of terget molecules, which means that surface area of carbon is a direct function of the carbon's binding efficiency
01[11] <@java> target
01[11] <@java> so as carbon sits longer, and the binding sites on the surface get filled
01[11] <@java> it pulls stuff out at a slower rate
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 11:27:34 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 16 11:27:34 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
02[11] * Disconnected
02[11] * Attempting to rejoin channel #micro08
03[11] * Rejoined channel #micro08
03[11] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[11] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
02[11] * @java ([email protected]) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
01[11] <java11> so towards the end of a bag
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 11:28:14 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 16 11:28:14 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
02[11] * Disconnected
02[11] * Attempting to rejoin channel #micro08
03[11] * Rejoined channel #micro08
03[11] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[11] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
01[11] <java> (sorry, i have no idea why i'm double logged in)
01[11] <java> the binding slows
01[11] <java> why is this important, well
01[11] <java> the problem lies with water stabililty
01[11] <java> chemically speaking
01[11] <java> the ocean is highly stable chemically and biochemically
01[11] <java> and changes occur slowly
01[11] <java> so the organisms in your tank are used to dynamics for things like DOMs, nitrogenous wastes, phosphates, etc.
01[11] <java> to be slow
01[11] <java> but when you pop in a new bag of carbon
01[11] <java> it sucks things out through adsorption at a very high rate, so overenight you can see a differnce
01[11] <java> but once that happens, it pulls things out more slowly as it gets "used up"
01[11] <java> so levels go back up from theat first cleaning until the bag is depleted
01[11] <java> plus, there's no inndicator of exactly when the carbon does get depleted
[11] <olaf> some of the higher grand carbons say replace every six weeks
02[11] * java11 ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[11] <java> yeah but that life will vary from tank to tank and conditions
[11] <olaf> true
[11] <olaf> biomass
01[11] <java> so what i'm getting at is that with carbon and the changes
01[11] <java> you'll get peaks and troughs of DOMs
01[11] <java> not sure how bad that is
01[11] <java> but i have heard that carbon addition to a dirty system can shock inhabitants
01[11] <java> or going too long between carbon changes
[11] <olaf> water is too clean
[11] <olaf> lol
01[11] <java> yeah, because if the tank sat dirty
01[11] <java> the things alive adapted, made coping mechanisms
01[11] <java> then you kick the crutch out and they fall, so to speak
01[11] <java> even though "healthy" is their normal state
[11] <@wade> if I may interject: usually the shock is due to sudden light penetration changes, not the DOM content itself - its just that DOM lends heavily to the penetration of light into tanks
[11] <mchia> Given these problems, what is the best way of removing excess DOM?
03[11] * wade sets mode: +o java
01[11] <@java> wade: interesting. so the zooxanthellae adapt to lower light, remove DOM and there's light shock.
[11] <olaf> I have seen in larger organizms that when taken out of a toxic area and places into a clean zone their bodies go threw with drawl and the toxins start to release out of their bodies
01[11] <@java> mchia: i think whatever is done should be geared towards stability
01[11] <@java> regular routines, if you're going to do carbon it should be very frequent changes to minimize the peaks and troughs of DOM levels
01[11] <@java> same for water changes, frequent, regular amounts
01[11] <@java> OR, i like macroalgae because it can biologically balance with the rest of the system
01[11] <@java> and come to an equilibrium
[11] <olaf> my competitor does more than 50% water changes each month using tap water and adding water conditioner
01[11] <@java> long-term, particularly
01[11] <@java> jeez, you guys must have killer tap
[11] <olaf> "killer" is the word
01[11] <@java> haha - so why does he use it??
[11] <olaf> chroine is at 2.2 high nitrates high PO$
[11] <olaf> po$
[11] <olaf> po4
01[11] <@java> and you have that massive purificatrion/ozone scheme - you should be running him out of business
01[11] <@java> and cleaning up his messes
[11] <olaf> he is a "Grand Master" (freshwater killie fish breeder) so he thinks he knows everything
01[11] <@java> killie fish ain't corals lol
[11] <olaf> He called me this week and left a aggresive message on my VM
[11] <olaf> he kept stating that he was a Grand Master and I wasn't
[11] <olaf> and how dare I poach his accounts
01[11] <@java> "Anakin I have the high ground you cannot win!"
[11] <olaf> he is from a town 50 miles away
[11] <walla2butterfly> lol
[11] <olaf> once a week visits
[11] <olaf> He said he was going to go and poach all my accounts I told him go ahead and then I told him who all my clients were
[11] <olaf> I actually played the VM for some of my clients
[11] <olaf> Big LOL
01[11] <@java> so he does reef setups with that water? are his clients happy?
[11] <olaf> k back to the topic
[11] <olaf> yep
[11] <olaf> tap h2o
01[11] <@java> hm... ok
[11] <olaf> he places $300 to $400 of fish in at once
[11] <olaf> all different kinds
[11] <walla2butterfly> mmm. LS adapts to their environment I guess
[11] <olaf> doesn't ask before just puts them in then bills
[11] <walla2butterfly> doesnt mean they are as happy as they can be
[11] <olaf> all die and no warrentee
01[11] <@java> whoa - clients can't be THAT happy
[11] <walla2butterfly> that is what I was thinking
[11] <olaf> he also adds aggresive fish like groupers to community aquariums
[11] <walla2butterfly> but some people think that SW tanks are so hard that maybe they accept it as being part ofthe trade off
[11] <olaf> I sat down with one of his clients and looked threw all of his invoices and he bill double for a few months
[11] <walla2butterfly> sounds like someone needs to contact the better buisness buerua
[11] <olaf> If you start off right and take the $$ hit in the beginning then you will have less issues later
[11] <walla2butterfly> oops
01[11] <@java> hey olaf, you ever try vodka dosing?
[11] <olaf> $$ = filtration lighting (setup)
[11] <olaf> no until this week I had never heard of this
[11] <olaf> this is very interesting
01[11] <@java> yeah, when people do alcohol boosting in reef tanks, they usually use vodka
01[11] <@java> not sure why though
[11] <mchia> Very commonly filter media companies advertise how large a surface area their media provides for bacterial growth.
[11] <mchia> Could too large a surface area lead to more production of DOM, as well as the dreaded "nitrate factory"?
[11] <olaf> I will have to try it with a hospital tank and chromis
[11] <walla2butterfly> heard it is bad
[11] <walla2butterfly> bad, bad
02[11] * @wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[11] <@java> oh sorry mchia!!
01[11] <@java> yes, i may have mentioned it at the chat you didn't make
01[11] <@java> i belive James asked about that
[11] <mchia> Which day was it?
01[11] <@java> not sure, but i'll answer it here
[11] <mchia> Thanks
01[11] <@java> yes, if the microbial community is unbalanced in terms of providing greater capacity to aerobic bacteria than denitrifiers
03[11] * wade ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[11] <@java> because
01[11] <@java> what happens is that the aerobic nitrifiers actually go after ammonia
01[11] <@java> these bacteria break down detritus
01[11] <@java> using enzymes they secrete, and keep localized in biofilms
01[11] <@java> to generate their food, ammonia
01[11] <@java> ammonia doesn't come direcctly from dead living matter
01[11] <@java> it has to be broken down
01[11] <@java> so in this way, bacteria have their "digestive" enzymes outside their cell walls
01[11] <@java> so as they break down detritus to get ammonia, and obviously they are sloppy "eaters" and not only the ammonia gets releasaed into the water, but other DOMs
01[12] <@java> so in this way, if you boost the population of saprophytes ("dead eaters")
01[12] <@java> then you'll get increased DOMs as well as the "nitrate factory" effect if the denitrification capacity isn't complementary
01[12] <@java> does that answer your question mchia?
[12] <mchia> Yes, thank you so much!
01[12] <@java> my pleasure
01[12] <@java> so, back to vodka
01[12] <@java> i recently saw a tank where the owner has been able to successfully keep and grow Dendronepthya long-term
01[12] <@java> hard to keep soft coral
[12] <walla2butterfly> hw long
01[12] <@java> i have to check
01[12] <@java> 12 months
[12] <walla2butterfly> reefkeeping magazine just had an article, and talking to a friend , he didnt feel as if it was really long enough to say it was sucessfull
01[12] <@java> haha you're up on what i'm talking about
01[12] <@java> that's the article
[12] <walla2butterfly>
the pics were awfull pretty though
01[12] <@java> well, what i wanted to bring in from that was that the vodka regimen stood out like a sore thumb among all the other clearly expert techniques the guy applied
01[12] <@java> and to me seemed really risky for what he was trying to do
01[12] <@java> basically, keep his nitrates down because he feeds his tank extremely heavily to support this coral
[12] <walla2butterfly> yea,
01[12] <@java> however, it is typical of the technique as commonly employed by reefkeepers
[12] <mchia> BTW, are you covering tube denitrators today?
01[12] <@java> yes
[12] <mchia> Thanks.
01[12] <@java> i take it that people have read the powerpoints?
[12] <walla2butterfly> my friend who lives in the phillipians said the only way he would keep them would be a direct feed of fresh SW from the ocean because of the need to feed so much
01[12] <@java> yeah, that's the problem this guy encountered
[12] <mchia> I have read the PPT's.
01[12] <@java> and the reason why he's boosting his denitrification with vodka
01[12] <@java> so the reasons i bring it up for today is:
[12] <olaf> Softies hard to keep? I have not run into an issue with this...
[12] <olaf> soft corals, right?
01[12] <@java> no not in general, but Dendronephthya is notoriously hard to keep
01[12] <@java> they're non-photosynthetic
[12] <olaf> never tried those
01[12] <@java> so you need to feed heavily
01[12] <@java> but along with thatt comes nitrates
[12] <olaf> how much hard are those then sea fans?
01[12] <@java> hm, not sure
[12] <olaf> then comes in my question that I posted in the forum about reef bugs
[12] <olaf> Marc Weisse Reef Bugs
[12] <olaf> http://www.marcweissaquariumproducts.com/reef_bugs.htm
01[12] <@java> omg, i didn't check the forum yesterday
01[12] <@java> sorry olaf
01[12] <@java> just seeing it now
01[12] <@java> sounds cool, but who knows what's actually in there
02[12] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[12] <@java> i wish those things came with a list of species on the bottle
[12] <olaf> I tried this about a year ago and OMG the feeding frenzy of polyps and corals and inverts os amazig
01[12] <@java> well if it works then that's all you need to know!
[12] <olaf> it is different every 6 months
01[12] <@java> oh, you mean lot-to-lot variation?
[12] <olaf> the first time it was darker and I had phytonplankon hatching on the top of my mixing dish
[12] <olaf> this last batch was light in color and no green after water was added larger pieces this last time
01[12] <@java> not good to have such noticeable variation
01[12] <@java> for a product
03[12] * wade ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[12] <@java> ok, so anyhow, back to alcohol dosing
01[12] <@java> the reasons i brought up that tank
01[12] <@java> was because a) he was using vodka! i don't understand why people use vodka when methanol or ethanol is so easily obtained
[12] <walla2butterfly> just thought I would throw this in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php
01[12] <@java> no vodka is 100% pure (200 proof) alcohol, theres water, sugars other impurities you don't know about
[12] <olaf> I noticed after using this I get a bunch of copopds then small isopods, Tanaids, and Amphipods
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <@java> if you're going to try this, it has been shown that methanol is more effective than ethanol (it was in one of the papers posted for this week)
01[12] <@java> and you can get methanol from various pharmaceutical suppliers, or online
01[12] <@java> ethanol is a reasonable second choice, but get pure ethanol, don't go pouring in Jack Daniels or nasty Popov vodka
01[12] <@java> who the heck knows what else is in there
01[12] <@java> the other thing is that people will sometimes just dose blindly
01[12] <@java> "i added a shot a week"
01[12] <@java> not good
[12] <olaf> some OJ with that please
[12] <olaf> lol
01[12] <@java> lol - first of all, there has to be nitrates present to begin with, otherwise something other than denitrifying bacteria will eat the carbon source
01[12] <@java> and you'll get a bloom of cyano or something else
02[12] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[12] <@java> some people report getting clear strands of snot all over the tank
01[12] <@java> so second, say you have nitrates
01[12] <@java> you have to add JUST ENOUGH to get rid of only that, and no excess
01[12] <@java> so that means you have to start low doses, and monitor nitrates
01[12] <@java> you should see a lowering of nitrates as the dose goes up
01[12] <@java> but when you reach zero, that's the dose.
[12] <olaf> there probably is no equation for dosing
02[12] * walla2butterfly ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[12] <@java> yeah, it would be hard to figure out, because it's a function of the bacterial population as well
01[12] <@java> so that's what's called "titrating" your dose
01[12] <@java> adding small amounts until the intended reactant is consumed completely
01[12] <@java> ideally, and in serious industrial denitrifiers
[12] <olaf> This seems to be a lot of work
01[12] <@java> they dose directly where the bacteria live
01[12] <@java> yeah it is a lot of work
03[12] * wade ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
01[12] <@java> people don't really do the work required though, just dose blindly
01[12] <@java> typical outcome:
01[12] <@java> thinghs go great for a few weeks, they get lowered nitrates
01[12] <@java> then when the balance goes so low that there's excess alcohol they get a bloom
01[12] <@java> strings of snot, usually
01[12] <@java> or cyano
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01[12] <@java> so ass i was saying, in industrial denitrifiers
[12] <walla2butterfly> (grrrr)
01[12] <@java> they localize the methanol dose only to where the denitrifying bacteria llive
01[12] <@java> so that it only gets consumed by them, and there's none in the effluent
01[12] <@java> this way, theres little danger to boosting the unintended populations
01[12] <@java> but in reefkeeping people just dump it in
[12] <walla2butterfly> So, I am gathering that if done in the proper way you are for this method>
01[12] <@java> yeah, i would try it n a coil , or if one could inject it into the sandbed.
[12] <walla2butterfly> just seems so risking, and one more thing to be on top of all the time
01[12] <@java> i think it would be less risky if injected into a slow-flowing coil of tubing, REALLY long
01[12] <@java> yeah, also only necessary if you have a problem
[12] <olaf> beware of the drunk sand sifter starfish
[12] <walla2butterfly> LOL
01[12] <@java> 9 times out of 10, sandbed and rock take care of things
[12] <walla2butterfly> starfish the other 1%
01[12] <@java> it's used in big aquaria (sharks and whales) where there's just so much nutrient something else hass to be done
01[12] <@java> like in that montreal biodome paper
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay I can see that
01[12] <@java> that was a denitrifiction coil
[12] <mchia> What is the minimum length for the coil?
01[12] <@java> it would have to be empirically determined based on your flow and nitrate levels
01[12] <@java> you'd have to tune it for your tank
01[12] <@java> and the thinner the better
01[12] <@java> more contact area
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the back of my mind, I see this steel set up next to someones tank
01[12] <@java> i might start with 6 or 7 feet of thin airline tubing for a nano
01[12] <@java> keep it dark so algae doesn't grow and clog it
01[12] <@java> flow has to be SLOW
01[12] <@java> steel would be nice!
01[12] <@java> dark
[12] <olaf> 1 drip per minute?
01[12] <@java> but the poor-man's would be some airline tubing
01[12] <@java> hard to say olaf
[12] <olaf> I guess trial and error on figuring that
01[12] <@java> because you also want some turnover for the system
[12] <walla2butterfly> Steel = moonshine bucket
[12] <olaf> Stainless Steel
01[12] <@java> yeah, you want to get it in so that you're moving volume at a reasonable rate as well
01[12] <@java> you could probably add flow the longer the tubing is
01[12] <@java> because there would be greater contact area to make up for less contacct time
[12] <olaf> so an air bubble would total this filtration
01[12] <@java> yeah, periodic flushes should be done
[12] <walla2butterfly> about break time?
01[12] <@java> the bacteria are facultative, so it wouldn't affect them
01[12] <@java> omg, yeah, lost track of time
[12] <walla2butterfly> (I mean seeing how I was late, and got kicked off, but I am still thinking break)
01[12] <@java> when we get back i want to talk about dosing frequency - just mentioning now so i don't forget
[12] <mchia> When you're back ... I have another question about bacteria populations.
[12] <mchia> By reducing the surface area of live rock/filter media, can we actually reduce the aerobic bacterial population and so have better handle of DOM?
[12] <mchia> Does the emphasis of current crop of books on reef keeping on live rock stacked up like a wall up the entire tank provide too much area for bacteria?
[12] <mchia> Once had a cyano attack and it was all over every live rock!
01[12] <@java> ok!!
01[12] <@java> be back in 10!
[12] <olaf> I have a Magnum HOT that is empty of any filtration, although there is a lot of tiny fan worms, foraminiferans and Tubular Calcareous sponges. The Magnum HOT must have a slow air leak because it shoots out air water mix once every hour or so. This seems to act like a really small breaking wave adding air into the water. I have this sitting on ther front of my 24-g nano.
[12] <olaf> So trying this coil would be hard to do since the air in the water is like micro-bubbles. Really small!
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01[12] <@java> people have done coils though
01[12] <@java> you could try to balance tubing width with denitrifiation
01[12] <@java> so another word about alcohol dosing
[12] <olaf> I guess I could tap into the back of the tank with a bulkhead and try it that way.
01[12] <@java> ionly if you really need to though
[12] <olaf> Thiinking about it I would rather try it on a different setup
[12] <olaf> my nano is so balanced that I don't want to mess up something that is going great
01[12] <@java> most of the time when i read about people doing alcohol, they dose a large dose once a week
[12] <olaf> I only wish my nano was bigger
01[12] <@java> this isn;t really ideal
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01[12] <@java> you'll flood the entire system with a carbon source, which will get depleted before the next dose
01[12] <@java> peaks and troughs
01[13] <@java> you'll boost bacterial populations which will starve soon
01[13] <@java> it's been found that if the rate of denitrification is kept as constant as possible
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01[13] <@java> then the total final processing will be greater
01[13] <@java> the bacteria aren't spending time or energy switching metabolic pathway, or processing alternative sources of carbon
01[13] <@java> if they are kept in a constant environment
01[13] <@java> however, this is practically impossible to achieve
01[13] <@java> so the point is that smaller, frequent doses work better than a large weekly dose
01[13] <@java> so to summarize:
01[13] <@java> small, frequent doses
01[13] <@java> pure alcohol, not food-grade booze
01[13] <@java> localize the alcohol if possible
01[13] <@java> no excess!! titrate the nitrate
01[13] <@java> any questions?
[13] <mchia> Is sulfur denitration next?
[13] <olaf> nope
[13] <olaf> nope for the questions
01[13] <@java> mchia: yes
[13] <mchia> Thanks
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01[13] <@java> so in all the denitrification schemes we've covered so far, the main primary electron acceptor (i know, blahblahblah) has been carbon
01[13] <@java> and as a result, carbon is typically the limiting reactant for denitrification
01[13] <@java> think about it - sometimes denitrification doesn't move as it should, even in the presence of plenty of anaerobic space
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01[13] <@java> why not... well, the water might be lacking in carbon sources, which can be as simple as CO2 for anaerobes, it could be compartmentalized and out-competed by the carbonate buffering system inherent in seawater
01[13] <@java> so when one doses alcohol, one bypasses the complex chemistry involved with CO2
01[13] <@java> and one adds carbon in a form unbound by matter like detritus
01[13] <@java> but using sulfur can bypass carbon requirements entirely
01[13] <@java> so you don't have to be too concerned about excess nutrients from overdosing, since sulfur would only be utilized by sufate-processing bacteria
01[13] <@java> but it doesn't mean there aren't other pitfalls
01[13] <@java> there are actually some sulfur denitrators on the market today
01[13] <@java> commercially made and designed, and one would think somewhat tuned
01[13] <@java> basically they consist of a canister or series of canisters with multiple stages
01[13] <@java> first is the pre-media, where the water enters and gets exposed to aerobic bacteria, in order to deplete the oxygen int he water
01[13] <@java> this can be anyhting colonizable by bacteria, but somewhat densely packed to accomodate high water/surface contact area
01[13] <@java> some first stages are carbon, filter floss, etc.
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01[13] <@java> anythign that aerobes can colonize.
01[13] <@java> then comes the sulfur beads with or without limestone/aragonite
01[13] <@java> i've seen some reactors which mix the sulfur and aragonite together
01[13] <@java> some witht he aragonite following
01[13] <@java> i'm sorry, before
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01[13] <@java> the aragonite allows for buffering the effluent form the reactor
01[13] <@java> from
01[13] <@java> the idea is that sulfur-metabolizing bacteria colonize directly
01[13] <@java> on sulfur beads, which are suspended in an anaerobic environment
01[13] <@java> (water depeleted of oxygen int he pre-meddia stage)
01[13] <@java> these guys will process nitrates without the considerations of organic carbon
01[13] <@java> but there can be problems, specifically if the sulfur chamber isn't maintained as an anaerobic environment
01[13] <@java> the bacteria will not utilize the sulfur, and instead switch metabolic pathways to plain aerobic respiration, particularly if the sulfur chamber accumulated detritus
01[13] <@java> and you'll just get another "nitrate factory" effect
01[13] <@java> so once again, these denitrators can be kind of tricky
01[13] <@java> and require tuning like alcohol
01[13] <@java> also, there's an upper limit to how much they can process baased on reasonable throughput of water
01[13] <@java> 50ppm is generally considered the upper limit bassed on red-ox potential of sulfur metabolism
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01[13] <@java> so the application is somewhat of a novelty, since 50ppm is considered manageable by other means, like water changes or added rock or sand
01[13] <@java> but i honeslt think that a lot of things in reefkeeping, particularly gadgety stuff like this, are done out of novelty rather than true function
[13] <mchia> I once put sulfur under a DSB, but it didn't seem to do anything to the nitrates (as suggested by an aquarium magazine article).
[13] <mchia> Why doesn't this work?
01[13] <@java> at the bottom of your sandbed there might not have been sufficient flow of nitrate-rich water
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01[13] <@java> to process it in noticeable quantities
01[13] <@java> the denitrator requires some decent flow
01[13] <@java> not so much that oxygenated water gets to the denitrifiers
01[13] <@java> but enough for nitrate-laden water to get in and be processed fast enough to counter the generation of nitrates
[13] <mchia> Overall is it still a good idea to put a little sulfur under the DSB in a new aquarium?
01[13] <@java> well, i think you run the risk of providing a large source of sulfur for the generation of hydrogen sulfide, which is highly toxic
01[13] <@java> particularly when it's compartmentalized long term at the bottom like that
01[13] <@java> with low, low flow
01[13] <@java> but honestly i'm not sure
01[13] <@java> i hadn't heard of that or given it much thought
[13] <olaf> isn't the by-product from the bacteria hydrogen sulfate this would be an acid which is why the agrogate would be last?
[13] <mchia> Thanks for the insight!
[13] <olaf> oops
[13] <olaf> I was trying to find the info and you stated it
01[13] <@java> the risk is of keeping these things compartmentalised, rather than letting it difuse out
01[13] <@java> over time
01[13] <@java> THEN when a huge bolus is released, from some physical disruption, it's like a bomb
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01[13] <@java> so... i'm not nuts about any of these techniques
01[13] <@java> however, if i had to pick one
01[13] <@java> because of a nitrate problem unmanageable by my live rock and sandbed
01[13] <@java> i might try a methanol-fed coil
[13] <walla2butterfly> to much of a risk factor for me
01[13] <@java> it seems to be the basic standard for a lot of large scale aquariums, aquaculture facilities
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01[13] <@java> so it'
01[13] <@java> s
01[13] <@java> practical and effective
[13] <walla2butterfly> I can see that but I am not keeping whales. LOL
[13] <mchia> Aside from chemical denitrators, what is the best method for nitrate reduction?
[13] <mchia> Is macroalgae uptake faster than bacterial denitration?
01[13] <@java> for me, in my opinion, natural denitrification from sand and rock, with a bioload appropriately balanced, maybe even under-loaded to accomodate the occasional dead snail
01[13] <@java> it can be, but it requires some attention
01[13] <@java> can't let leaves, branches die-off
01[13] <@java> should prune it jsut like terrestrial plants to encourage constant growth
[13] <walla2butterfly> I like natural also, struggle with the use of carbon but dont think it is natural
01[13] <@java> i always notice parts of my macros dying off too late
01[13] <@java> leaves going brown or clear, then i'm like DAMN
[13] <olaf> with my 6-g I don't even prune the leaves
01[13] <@java> nutrients released back
01[13] <@java> does it not grow??
[13] <olaf> yes it grows
[13] <olaf> I think that some of the micro inverts do pruning
01[13] <@java> so how do you keep it from overgrowing?
01[13] <@java> oh
[13] <mchia> olafoes the macro meltdown?
[13] <olaf> I sometimes see the long leaf caulerpa "bleeding"
[13] <olaf> I think that some of the bristle worm feed on the leaves some times
01[13] <@java> i've seen that - something is eating it
01[13] <@java> oh, yep
[13] <olaf> when ever this bleeding occurs soon after a new stem appears from that point
[13] <walla2butterfly> reminds me of the first time I saw some go asexual, no one told me about that, I was like what the *$*&#
01[13] <@java> all went clear?
[13] <olaf> all went clear? <--?
[13] <walla2butterfly> feed the fish, tank looked wonderful, looked over about 1/2 hr later and the tank was all green
01[13] <@java> i've never seen caulerpa go sexual, but i've heard the leaves turn clear from the plant cells evacuating the leaf structure
[13] <walla2butterfly> I freaked to put it mildly
01[13] <@java> and the water turns green
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya the leaves were clear and the tank water was green
[13] <olaf> the bleeding is glue like and clotts fast
[13] <walla2butterfly> had it happpen a couple of times
01[13] <@java> wow. that's a oft-cited but rarely seen occurrence!
01[13] <@java> so many poeple talk about it, but very few actually see it
01[13] <@java> you're LUCKY like that tami
[13] <walla2butterfly> then I had a tang and never could keep it in the tank after that
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[13] <walla2butterfly> sure didnt feel lucky
01[13] <@java> how's your tank?
[13] <walla2butterfly> I am told that no one has ever got a reproduction from it though
[13] <walla2butterfly> better
01[13] <@java> losses?
[13] <walla2butterfly> I couldnt figure out why the nitrates went through the roof so fast
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya but I got a refund for most of what I bought so that is good
01[13] <@java> you done with the water changes?
[13] <walla2butterfly> anyway right after I checked the nitrates last I started using a new food. And I guess I was over dosing, to add with the Anenome problem
[13] <walla2butterfly> yes, but will do one this weekend just normal maintance
01[13] <@java> ugh. i hate water changes
[13] <walla2butterfly> have everything back home
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[13] <walla2butterfly> oh, I was getting really effecient by tues
01[13] <@java> did you lose any livestock?
[13] <mchia> Should caulerpa still be kept when there are other macroalgaes???
[13] <olaf> I started a 3-g nano 4 months ago with just live sand and live rock no filtration no water movement 1 baby chromis and three tiny snails, i break the surface twice a day with a turkey baster water chemistry is good. I feed the chromis 1 - 2 spectrum small pellets a day.
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya, but not much. Been a bad year so far. Had a big lose back at the first of the year when the power outage happened. so I figure my turn is over
01[13] <@java> mchia: hm. not sure why not. not an expert on that though
01[13] <@java> mchia: oh, you mean why risk it if you have other macros taking in nutrients?
01[13] <@java> yeah, maybe give it a miss if you're already stocked with chaetomorpha or something
[13] <mchia> Yes, thanks!
[13] <walla2butterfly> I did get 3 mushrooms from the LFS, about the size of a quarter for $5
01[13] <@java> don't see something for 5$ too often
01[13] <@java> good deal
[13] <mchia> Before time is up, I would appreciate if you could answer my earlier question (before the break)?
[13] <walla2butterfly> they were off shoots from something he had in there before, and so I asked. He makes enough money off me as it is LOL
[13] <olaf> http://www.reefscavengers.com/ under corals
01[13] <@java> oops, can you repeat it?
[13] <olaf> good prices
[13] <olaf> I have ordered from them twice now
01[13] <@java> mchia: got it, nm
[13] <olaf> good stuff
[13] <mchia> I have another question about bacteria populations.
[13] <mchia> By reducing the surface area of live rock/filter media, can we actually reduce the aerobic bacterial population and so have better handle of DOM?
[13] <mchia> Does the emphasis of current crop of books on reef keeping on live rock stacked up like a wall up the entire tank provide too much area for bacteria?
[13] <mchia> Once had a cyano attack and it was all over every live rock!
[13] <walla2butterfly> so, I gather you are happy with them
[13] <olaf> I did get one star that was not so good but they replaced it no problem
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01[13] <@java> interesting question... it might be a valid avenue to explore if excess n-cycle capacity might cause excess DOM
[13] <olaf> the only down fall is shipping with USPS
[13] <olaf> I do not like the USPS
[13] <walla2butterfly> LOL
01[13] <@java> so that the idea i've mentioned, to have exccess capacity to deal with mishaps, might lead to more DOMs
[13] <walla2butterfly> Well going to miss this sat. morn class, it has been great
01[13] <@java> very possible, but i think the trade-off is worth it, i.e. i'd rather my tank be able to absorb and overfeeding or death rather than have a little more DOMs
01[13] <@java> remember, DOM isn't necessarily bad
01[13] <@java> "too much" of course is
[13] <olaf> food for something
01[13] <@java> but there needs to be some for building blocks for growth
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01[13] <@java> besides, if you have rock and sand, you can't stop DOMs
[13] <olaf> I tell all my clients that the aquarium is an ecosystem that needs to be built
01[13] <@java> they're going to be made, and going to accumulate if not removed somehow
[13] <olaf> this mean adding everything that would be found in the natural invironment
01[13] <@java> because you can't have a tank without some bacteria
01[13] <@java> so you'll always have DOM
01[13] <@java> does that cover it mchia?
[13] <mchia> Yes, thanks!
[13] <mchia> Does lack of surface area limit bacteria growth & vice verca (other factors remaining the same)?
01[13] <@java> to some extent, but they can always build upon themselves, too, by thickening biofilms
[13] <mchia> I mean does more surface area = more bacteria?
01[13] <@java> generally, yes
[13] <mchia> Thanks!
01[13] <@java> if enough nutrients are provided, so that one variable can't stay the same
[13] <walla2butterfly> What got me with my tank, was when the ammonia and nitrates were through the roof, the little rock feather worms were just out and blowing in the wind like nothing was wrong
01[13] <@java> we're getting close to the end
01[13] <@java> *sniff
[13] <mchia> Back to my cyano problem, does it mean it would be less of a problem if I have less live rock?
[13] <walla2butterfly> yea *sniffle
01[14] <@java> i don't think so, because cyano is a real biofilm expert, it'll form webs across your tank from glass to glass if it has to
[14] <olaf> I have resolved cyano problems with increased water flow
[14] <mchia> What is the best strategy to prevent/treat cyano?
[14] <olaf> I have aquired aquariums contracts that have been so mismanaged that the cyano has turned into sponges like stuff
[14] <mchia> olaf: What did you do?
01[14] <@java> at the most basic level, get rid of nutrients. flow as olaf mentioned can facilitate greater nutrient uptake and processing, water changes, cyano is also photosynthetic, so lower light
[14] <olaf> white cellular mass .
[14] <olaf> I took a powerhead and blew it all off the rock and installed a power head
[14] <olaf> each week I would blow water at the rock to clean it off
[14] <olaf> The rock would have like little volcanoes of stuff squirting out of its holes
01[14] <@java> ew
[14] <olaf> after 2 - 3 weeks the rock was better
[14] <walla2butterfly> yuck
02[14] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[14] <@java> well, i hope you guys liked the course and learned some things from it
[14] <olaf> I powerwash the live rock often with a powerhead
[14] <walla2butterfly> Yes, it will be missed
[14] <olaf> yep I did, thanks
01[14] <@java> most importantly, have a "feel" for microbes int he tank and in auxiliary devices
[14] <walla2butterfly> I like to say good bye to everyone now, I have an appt at 11:30 so I need to get going
[14] <walla2butterfly> though I hate too
[14] <mchia> Thanks, Jason, for a great course!
[14] <mchia> Thanks to everyone too!
01[14] <@java> ok, thanks so much for participating!!
[14] <walla2butterfly> yes, much better understanding
[14] <olaf> take care everyone
01[14] <@java> thanks you mchia, and thank you for those insightful questions
01[14] <@java> i've learned from everyone here too!
[14] <walla2butterfly> but then some times that can be dangerous, have so much more to worry about LOL
01[14] <@java> use the force for good lol
[14] <olaf> I will start post stuff in the forum
01[14] <@java> i'll definitely check in there too
[14] <olaf> like picture
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[14] <mchia> olaf: Care to post some pics of your 3g nano?
01[14] <@java> i'd love to see your tanks olaf
[14] <olaf> sure
01[14] <@java> i want to see that anemone client tank
[14] <mchia> Me too!
[14] <olaf> I am going to try to get my friends camera today
01[14] <@java> COOOOOL!
[14] <olaf> takes better pictures then my phone
[14] <olaf> I have to post all my clients aquariums on the web also
01[14] <@java> ok guys, i gotta run too - THANK YOU ALL!!
[14] <olaf> thank you
[14] <olaf> laters
01[14] <@java> i enjoyed our discussions!
[14] <mchia> If you are planning to buy a new camera, I recommend the Fujifilm f-series.
01[14] <@java> later!
[14] <mchia> Great for diving too!
[14] <olaf> I used my friends
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 14:08:45 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 10:58:29 2008
Session Start: Sat Feb 16 10:58:29 2008
Session Ident: #micro08
03[10] * Now talking in #micro08
03[10] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[10] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
01[10] <java> good morning!
[10] <@mchia> Dear Jason,
[10] <@mchia> Many thanks for the valuable insights that you have given us over the weeks.
[10] <@mchia> I wonder if you could devote a little time to answer this question preferably this lecture, or else in the forum.
[10] <@mchia> From the last few lectures/readings, it is clear a central use of bacteria is get them to reduce nitrates in the reef tank. However, there is a cost to this as in the first lecture, you mentioned that more bacteria means more DOM. So:
[10] <@mchia> 1. Is there a way to use bacteria to reduce DOM the same way as nitrates, to complement skimming or activated carbon?
[10] <@mchia> 2. If there is no or little water change, how SPECIFICALLY from a biological especially microbiological viewpoint, will DOM harm corals and other livestock?
[10] <@mchia> 3. Can skimming or activated carbon adequately get rid of DOM without or with only minimal water change?
[10] <@mchia> I hope to get some answers that will help to reduce the need for frequent or large water changes. I am sure my fellow reefers will be interested too. Thanks again.
[10] <@mchia> mchia
[10] <@mchia> PS. A related question which I hope you don't mind address is that very commonly filter media companies advertise how large a surface area their media provides for bacterial growth. Could too large a surface area lead to more production of DOM, as well as the dreaded "nitrate factory"? And if so (i.e., if there are disadvantages of too much surface area from filter media and live rock also), how do we know when large is too large?
[11] <@mchia> Today I'm the operator again, the first person to login is the operator!
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o java
03[11] * wade ([email protected]) has joined #micro08
03[11] * mchia sets mode: +o wade
01[11] <@java> awesome questions mchia
[11] <@mchia> I cut & pasted it from another file I was typing into, that's why it looks long.
01[11] <@java> I honestly do not think there is an easy way around DOM, at least from a microbiological perspective
01[11] <@java> since it comes from microbes just doing their thing
01[11] <@java> eating sloppily, dying, getting lysed by marine viruses (bacteriophages)
01[11] <@java> secreting slime coats for biofilms, etc.
01[11] <@java> HOWEVER
01[11] <@java> i thought that some soft corals untilized DOMs
01[11] <@java> utilized
01[11] <@java> perhaps similar to nitrogen uptake by xenia
01[11] <@java> but i think the reports of this are anecdotal
01[11] <@java> and the mechanisms, nutrient pathways are poorly understood
01[11] <@java> photosynthetic organisms can utilize DOMs as well
[11] <@wade> olaf: The fish husbandry is set to start April 7
01[11] <@java> macroalgaes, since plant cell wall constituents are complex sugars, these are assembled from carbon obtained from the environment and water column
01[11] <@java> so, bacteria can't really play a role in reducing DOMs
01[11] <@java> but i think it would be worthwhile to experiment and research how macroalgaes might do so in a closed system
[11] <olaf> thx wade
01[11] <@java> not sure if too much solid data exists on this though
[11] <olaf> I have done this with a 6-g nano and three type of macroalgae
[11] <olaf> I have not done a water change in 4 years
01[11] <@java> whoa
[11] <olaf> everything is balanced
01[11] <@java> gorgeous
[11] <olaf> I add new things but they end up getting eaten
[11] <olaf> which I thought would throw off the balance
01[11] <@java> mchia, question 2:
[11] <@mchia> Testing my connection.
[11] <olaf> but no just a trace
01[11] <@java> you're good mchia
02[11] * @mchia ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: mchia)
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[11] <olaf> I have long leaf caulerpa, short leaf caulerpa and Chaetomorpha Algae growing
[11] <olaf> I put only a few strands of Chaetomorpha Algae in and no there is a bunch same with the long leaf caulerpa
01[11] <@java> peoplpe freak out about caulerpa, but i used it in my first nano for nutrient export and i liked it a lot
01[11] <@java> it's pretty too
[11] <olaf> the short leaf is not growing just maintaining
01[11] <@java> oh mchia is back
[11] <olaf> short leaf can e bad
[11] <mchia> So should we limit bacteria growth to limit DOM?
[11] <olaf> I had one tank taken over by it until I added a sea egg (urchin) ad two long spine unchins
[11] <olaf> k
01[11] <@java> well, DOM can be good or bad depending
01[11] <@java> most aquatic organisms take up their nutrients directly from the water column
01[11] <@java> corals, plants, bacteria
01[11] <@java> and these DOMs are the source of building blocks for biosynthesis
01[11] <@java> so there has to be SOME present to support growth
01[11] <@java> but the problem comes in with exccess
01[11] <@java> because a subset of DOMs are nutrients
01[11] <@java> then it can fuel unwanted growth
01[11] <@java> cyano, algae
01[11] <@java> the term "DOM" refers to a large range of molecules and macromolecules
01[11] <@java> in it can be included phosphates and nitrogenous compounds
01[11] <@java> but also anything else synthesized by living organisms
01[11] <@java> like secreted proteins or signaling molecules
01[11] <@java> so in a coral tank, an accumulation of DOMs can mean accumulation of not only nutrients
01[11] <@java> which may or may not be deletereious depending on quantity
01[11] <@java> but also chemical warfare/communication molecules from corals
01[11] <@java> so to summarize for your second question
01[11] <@java> whether accumulation of DOMs is bad
01[11] <@java> for corals
01[11] <@java> it depends on
01[11] <@java> a) your setup, what corals you are keeping, particularly aggressive species or softies which are known to be noxious like Sinularia or similar
01[11] <@java> b) how much you let accumulate
01[11] <@java> just from a general feeling perspective, i don't think corals get too happy when the water gets really, really yellow
01[11] <@java> just my own opinion there
01[11] <@java> other things will factor in like light and temp, DOMs may fuel an algae growth if much of it is composed of phosphates
01[11] <@java> but i think you get the idea
01[11] <@java> as for your 3rd question, i think that skimming and carbon can do a good job of removing a lot of DOMs
01[11] <@java> however, remember how skimming functions
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01[11] <@java> it generally removes charged particulates, bith big and very small, complexes of molecules
01[11] <@java> based on the water/air interface interactions with bubbles
01[11] <@java> so highly dissolved organics won't be efficiently skimmed
[11] <walla2butterfly> (turned off alarm and fell back a sleep, sorry)
01[11] <@java> but carbon can remove those
01[11] <@java> HOWEVER
01[11] <@java> a couple considerations
01[11] <@java> a) carbon functions by adsorption of terget molecules, which means that surface area of carbon is a direct function of the carbon's binding efficiency
01[11] <@java> target
01[11] <@java> so as carbon sits longer, and the binding sites on the surface get filled
01[11] <@java> it pulls stuff out at a slower rate
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03[11] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[11] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
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01[11] <java11> so towards the end of a bag
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 11:28:14 2008
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03[11] * Topic is 'Welcome to MACO Reef Microbiology 2008!'
03[11] * Set by mchia on Fri Feb 15 14:07:04
01[11] <java> (sorry, i have no idea why i'm double logged in)
01[11] <java> the binding slows
01[11] <java> why is this important, well
01[11] <java> the problem lies with water stabililty
01[11] <java> chemically speaking
01[11] <java> the ocean is highly stable chemically and biochemically
01[11] <java> and changes occur slowly
01[11] <java> so the organisms in your tank are used to dynamics for things like DOMs, nitrogenous wastes, phosphates, etc.
01[11] <java> to be slow
01[11] <java> but when you pop in a new bag of carbon
01[11] <java> it sucks things out through adsorption at a very high rate, so overenight you can see a differnce
01[11] <java> but once that happens, it pulls things out more slowly as it gets "used up"
01[11] <java> so levels go back up from theat first cleaning until the bag is depleted
01[11] <java> plus, there's no inndicator of exactly when the carbon does get depleted
[11] <olaf> some of the higher grand carbons say replace every six weeks
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01[11] <java> yeah but that life will vary from tank to tank and conditions
[11] <olaf> true
[11] <olaf> biomass
01[11] <java> so what i'm getting at is that with carbon and the changes
01[11] <java> you'll get peaks and troughs of DOMs
01[11] <java> not sure how bad that is
01[11] <java> but i have heard that carbon addition to a dirty system can shock inhabitants
01[11] <java> or going too long between carbon changes
[11] <olaf> water is too clean
[11] <olaf> lol
01[11] <java> yeah, because if the tank sat dirty
01[11] <java> the things alive adapted, made coping mechanisms
01[11] <java> then you kick the crutch out and they fall, so to speak
01[11] <java> even though "healthy" is their normal state
[11] <@wade> if I may interject: usually the shock is due to sudden light penetration changes, not the DOM content itself - its just that DOM lends heavily to the penetration of light into tanks
[11] <mchia> Given these problems, what is the best way of removing excess DOM?
03[11] * wade sets mode: +o java
01[11] <@java> wade: interesting. so the zooxanthellae adapt to lower light, remove DOM and there's light shock.
[11] <olaf> I have seen in larger organizms that when taken out of a toxic area and places into a clean zone their bodies go threw with drawl and the toxins start to release out of their bodies
01[11] <@java> mchia: i think whatever is done should be geared towards stability
01[11] <@java> regular routines, if you're going to do carbon it should be very frequent changes to minimize the peaks and troughs of DOM levels
01[11] <@java> same for water changes, frequent, regular amounts
01[11] <@java> OR, i like macroalgae because it can biologically balance with the rest of the system
01[11] <@java> and come to an equilibrium
[11] <olaf> my competitor does more than 50% water changes each month using tap water and adding water conditioner
01[11] <@java> long-term, particularly
01[11] <@java> jeez, you guys must have killer tap
[11] <olaf> "killer" is the word
01[11] <@java> haha - so why does he use it??
[11] <olaf> chroine is at 2.2 high nitrates high PO$
[11] <olaf> po$
[11] <olaf> po4
01[11] <@java> and you have that massive purificatrion/ozone scheme - you should be running him out of business
01[11] <@java> and cleaning up his messes
[11] <olaf> he is a "Grand Master" (freshwater killie fish breeder) so he thinks he knows everything
01[11] <@java> killie fish ain't corals lol
[11] <olaf> He called me this week and left a aggresive message on my VM
[11] <olaf> he kept stating that he was a Grand Master and I wasn't
[11] <olaf> and how dare I poach his accounts
01[11] <@java> "Anakin I have the high ground you cannot win!"
[11] <olaf> he is from a town 50 miles away
[11] <walla2butterfly> lol
[11] <olaf> once a week visits
[11] <olaf> He said he was going to go and poach all my accounts I told him go ahead and then I told him who all my clients were
[11] <olaf> I actually played the VM for some of my clients
[11] <olaf> Big LOL
01[11] <@java> so he does reef setups with that water? are his clients happy?
[11] <olaf> k back to the topic
[11] <olaf> yep
[11] <olaf> tap h2o
01[11] <@java> hm... ok
[11] <olaf> he places $300 to $400 of fish in at once
[11] <olaf> all different kinds
[11] <walla2butterfly> mmm. LS adapts to their environment I guess
[11] <olaf> doesn't ask before just puts them in then bills
[11] <walla2butterfly> doesnt mean they are as happy as they can be
[11] <olaf> all die and no warrentee
01[11] <@java> whoa - clients can't be THAT happy
[11] <walla2butterfly> that is what I was thinking
[11] <olaf> he also adds aggresive fish like groupers to community aquariums
[11] <walla2butterfly> but some people think that SW tanks are so hard that maybe they accept it as being part ofthe trade off
[11] <olaf> I sat down with one of his clients and looked threw all of his invoices and he bill double for a few months
[11] <walla2butterfly> sounds like someone needs to contact the better buisness buerua
[11] <olaf> If you start off right and take the $$ hit in the beginning then you will have less issues later
[11] <walla2butterfly> oops
01[11] <@java> hey olaf, you ever try vodka dosing?
[11] <olaf> $$ = filtration lighting (setup)
[11] <olaf> no until this week I had never heard of this
[11] <olaf> this is very interesting
01[11] <@java> yeah, when people do alcohol boosting in reef tanks, they usually use vodka
01[11] <@java> not sure why though
[11] <mchia> Very commonly filter media companies advertise how large a surface area their media provides for bacterial growth.
[11] <mchia> Could too large a surface area lead to more production of DOM, as well as the dreaded "nitrate factory"?
[11] <olaf> I will have to try it with a hospital tank and chromis
[11] <walla2butterfly> heard it is bad
[11] <walla2butterfly> bad, bad
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01[11] <@java> oh sorry mchia!!
01[11] <@java> yes, i may have mentioned it at the chat you didn't make
01[11] <@java> i belive James asked about that
[11] <mchia> Which day was it?
01[11] <@java> not sure, but i'll answer it here
[11] <mchia> Thanks
01[11] <@java> yes, if the microbial community is unbalanced in terms of providing greater capacity to aerobic bacteria than denitrifiers
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01[11] <@java> because
01[11] <@java> what happens is that the aerobic nitrifiers actually go after ammonia
01[11] <@java> these bacteria break down detritus
01[11] <@java> using enzymes they secrete, and keep localized in biofilms
01[11] <@java> to generate their food, ammonia
01[11] <@java> ammonia doesn't come direcctly from dead living matter
01[11] <@java> it has to be broken down
01[11] <@java> so in this way, bacteria have their "digestive" enzymes outside their cell walls
01[11] <@java> so as they break down detritus to get ammonia, and obviously they are sloppy "eaters" and not only the ammonia gets releasaed into the water, but other DOMs
01[12] <@java> so in this way, if you boost the population of saprophytes ("dead eaters")
01[12] <@java> then you'll get increased DOMs as well as the "nitrate factory" effect if the denitrification capacity isn't complementary
01[12] <@java> does that answer your question mchia?
[12] <mchia> Yes, thank you so much!
01[12] <@java> my pleasure
01[12] <@java> so, back to vodka
01[12] <@java> i recently saw a tank where the owner has been able to successfully keep and grow Dendronepthya long-term
01[12] <@java> hard to keep soft coral
[12] <walla2butterfly> hw long
01[12] <@java> i have to check
01[12] <@java> 12 months
[12] <walla2butterfly> reefkeeping magazine just had an article, and talking to a friend , he didnt feel as if it was really long enough to say it was sucessfull
01[12] <@java> haha you're up on what i'm talking about
01[12] <@java> that's the article
[12] <walla2butterfly>
the pics were awfull pretty though01[12] <@java> well, what i wanted to bring in from that was that the vodka regimen stood out like a sore thumb among all the other clearly expert techniques the guy applied
01[12] <@java> and to me seemed really risky for what he was trying to do
01[12] <@java> basically, keep his nitrates down because he feeds his tank extremely heavily to support this coral
[12] <walla2butterfly> yea,
01[12] <@java> however, it is typical of the technique as commonly employed by reefkeepers
[12] <mchia> BTW, are you covering tube denitrators today?
01[12] <@java> yes
[12] <mchia> Thanks.
01[12] <@java> i take it that people have read the powerpoints?
[12] <walla2butterfly> my friend who lives in the phillipians said the only way he would keep them would be a direct feed of fresh SW from the ocean because of the need to feed so much
01[12] <@java> yeah, that's the problem this guy encountered
[12] <mchia> I have read the PPT's.
01[12] <@java> and the reason why he's boosting his denitrification with vodka
01[12] <@java> so the reasons i bring it up for today is:
[12] <olaf> Softies hard to keep? I have not run into an issue with this...
[12] <olaf> soft corals, right?
01[12] <@java> no not in general, but Dendronephthya is notoriously hard to keep
01[12] <@java> they're non-photosynthetic
[12] <olaf> never tried those
01[12] <@java> so you need to feed heavily
01[12] <@java> but along with thatt comes nitrates
[12] <olaf> how much hard are those then sea fans?
01[12] <@java> hm, not sure
[12] <olaf> then comes in my question that I posted in the forum about reef bugs
[12] <olaf> Marc Weisse Reef Bugs
[12] <olaf> http://www.marcweissaquariumproducts.com/reef_bugs.htm
01[12] <@java> omg, i didn't check the forum yesterday
01[12] <@java> sorry olaf
01[12] <@java> just seeing it now
01[12] <@java> sounds cool, but who knows what's actually in there
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01[12] <@java> i wish those things came with a list of species on the bottle
[12] <olaf> I tried this about a year ago and OMG the feeding frenzy of polyps and corals and inverts os amazig
01[12] <@java> well if it works then that's all you need to know!
[12] <olaf> it is different every 6 months
01[12] <@java> oh, you mean lot-to-lot variation?
[12] <olaf> the first time it was darker and I had phytonplankon hatching on the top of my mixing dish
[12] <olaf> this last batch was light in color and no green after water was added larger pieces this last time
01[12] <@java> not good to have such noticeable variation
01[12] <@java> for a product
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01[12] <@java> ok, so anyhow, back to alcohol dosing
01[12] <@java> the reasons i brought up that tank
01[12] <@java> was because a) he was using vodka! i don't understand why people use vodka when methanol or ethanol is so easily obtained
[12] <walla2butterfly> just thought I would throw this in http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-02/feature/index.php
01[12] <@java> no vodka is 100% pure (200 proof) alcohol, theres water, sugars other impurities you don't know about
[12] <olaf> I noticed after using this I get a bunch of copopds then small isopods, Tanaids, and Amphipods
[12] <olaf> k
01[12] <@java> if you're going to try this, it has been shown that methanol is more effective than ethanol (it was in one of the papers posted for this week)
01[12] <@java> and you can get methanol from various pharmaceutical suppliers, or online
01[12] <@java> ethanol is a reasonable second choice, but get pure ethanol, don't go pouring in Jack Daniels or nasty Popov vodka
01[12] <@java> who the heck knows what else is in there
01[12] <@java> the other thing is that people will sometimes just dose blindly
01[12] <@java> "i added a shot a week"
01[12] <@java> not good
[12] <olaf> some OJ with that please
[12] <olaf> lol
01[12] <@java> lol - first of all, there has to be nitrates present to begin with, otherwise something other than denitrifying bacteria will eat the carbon source
01[12] <@java> and you'll get a bloom of cyano or something else
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01[12] <@java> some people report getting clear strands of snot all over the tank
01[12] <@java> so second, say you have nitrates
01[12] <@java> you have to add JUST ENOUGH to get rid of only that, and no excess
01[12] <@java> so that means you have to start low doses, and monitor nitrates
01[12] <@java> you should see a lowering of nitrates as the dose goes up
01[12] <@java> but when you reach zero, that's the dose.
[12] <olaf> there probably is no equation for dosing
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01[12] <@java> yeah, it would be hard to figure out, because it's a function of the bacterial population as well
01[12] <@java> so that's what's called "titrating" your dose
01[12] <@java> adding small amounts until the intended reactant is consumed completely
01[12] <@java> ideally, and in serious industrial denitrifiers
[12] <olaf> This seems to be a lot of work
01[12] <@java> they dose directly where the bacteria live
01[12] <@java> yeah it is a lot of work
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01[12] <@java> people don't really do the work required though, just dose blindly
01[12] <@java> typical outcome:
01[12] <@java> thinghs go great for a few weeks, they get lowered nitrates
01[12] <@java> then when the balance goes so low that there's excess alcohol they get a bloom
01[12] <@java> strings of snot, usually
01[12] <@java> or cyano
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01[12] <@java> so ass i was saying, in industrial denitrifiers
[12] <walla2butterfly> (grrrr)
01[12] <@java> they localize the methanol dose only to where the denitrifying bacteria llive
01[12] <@java> so that it only gets consumed by them, and there's none in the effluent
01[12] <@java> this way, theres little danger to boosting the unintended populations
01[12] <@java> but in reefkeeping people just dump it in
[12] <walla2butterfly> So, I am gathering that if done in the proper way you are for this method>
01[12] <@java> yeah, i would try it n a coil , or if one could inject it into the sandbed.
[12] <walla2butterfly> just seems so risking, and one more thing to be on top of all the time
01[12] <@java> i think it would be less risky if injected into a slow-flowing coil of tubing, REALLY long
01[12] <@java> yeah, also only necessary if you have a problem
[12] <olaf> beware of the drunk sand sifter starfish
[12] <walla2butterfly> LOL
01[12] <@java> 9 times out of 10, sandbed and rock take care of things
[12] <walla2butterfly> starfish the other 1%
01[12] <@java> it's used in big aquaria (sharks and whales) where there's just so much nutrient something else hass to be done
01[12] <@java> like in that montreal biodome paper
[12] <walla2butterfly> okay I can see that
01[12] <@java> that was a denitrifiction coil
[12] <mchia> What is the minimum length for the coil?
01[12] <@java> it would have to be empirically determined based on your flow and nitrate levels
01[12] <@java> you'd have to tune it for your tank
01[12] <@java> and the thinner the better
01[12] <@java> more contact area
[12] <walla2butterfly> in the back of my mind, I see this steel set up next to someones tank
01[12] <@java> i might start with 6 or 7 feet of thin airline tubing for a nano
01[12] <@java> keep it dark so algae doesn't grow and clog it
01[12] <@java> flow has to be SLOW
01[12] <@java> steel would be nice!
01[12] <@java> dark
[12] <olaf> 1 drip per minute?
01[12] <@java> but the poor-man's would be some airline tubing
01[12] <@java> hard to say olaf
[12] <olaf> I guess trial and error on figuring that
01[12] <@java> because you also want some turnover for the system
[12] <walla2butterfly> Steel = moonshine bucket
[12] <olaf> Stainless Steel
01[12] <@java> yeah, you want to get it in so that you're moving volume at a reasonable rate as well
01[12] <@java> you could probably add flow the longer the tubing is
01[12] <@java> because there would be greater contact area to make up for less contacct time
[12] <olaf> so an air bubble would total this filtration
01[12] <@java> yeah, periodic flushes should be done
[12] <walla2butterfly> about break time?
01[12] <@java> the bacteria are facultative, so it wouldn't affect them
01[12] <@java> omg, yeah, lost track of time
[12] <walla2butterfly> (I mean seeing how I was late, and got kicked off, but I am still thinking break)
01[12] <@java> when we get back i want to talk about dosing frequency - just mentioning now so i don't forget
[12] <mchia> When you're back ... I have another question about bacteria populations.
[12] <mchia> By reducing the surface area of live rock/filter media, can we actually reduce the aerobic bacterial population and so have better handle of DOM?
[12] <mchia> Does the emphasis of current crop of books on reef keeping on live rock stacked up like a wall up the entire tank provide too much area for bacteria?
[12] <mchia> Once had a cyano attack and it was all over every live rock!
01[12] <@java> ok!!
01[12] <@java> be back in 10!
[12] <olaf> I have a Magnum HOT that is empty of any filtration, although there is a lot of tiny fan worms, foraminiferans and Tubular Calcareous sponges. The Magnum HOT must have a slow air leak because it shoots out air water mix once every hour or so. This seems to act like a really small breaking wave adding air into the water. I have this sitting on ther front of my 24-g nano.
[12] <olaf> So trying this coil would be hard to do since the air in the water is like micro-bubbles. Really small!
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01[12] <@java> people have done coils though
01[12] <@java> you could try to balance tubing width with denitrifiation
01[12] <@java> so another word about alcohol dosing
[12] <olaf> I guess I could tap into the back of the tank with a bulkhead and try it that way.
01[12] <@java> ionly if you really need to though
[12] <olaf> Thiinking about it I would rather try it on a different setup
[12] <olaf> my nano is so balanced that I don't want to mess up something that is going great
01[12] <@java> most of the time when i read about people doing alcohol, they dose a large dose once a week
[12] <olaf> I only wish my nano was bigger
01[12] <@java> this isn;t really ideal
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01[12] <@java> you'll flood the entire system with a carbon source, which will get depleted before the next dose
01[12] <@java> peaks and troughs
01[13] <@java> you'll boost bacterial populations which will starve soon
01[13] <@java> it's been found that if the rate of denitrification is kept as constant as possible
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01[13] <@java> then the total final processing will be greater
01[13] <@java> the bacteria aren't spending time or energy switching metabolic pathway, or processing alternative sources of carbon
01[13] <@java> if they are kept in a constant environment
01[13] <@java> however, this is practically impossible to achieve
01[13] <@java> so the point is that smaller, frequent doses work better than a large weekly dose
01[13] <@java> so to summarize:
01[13] <@java> small, frequent doses
01[13] <@java> pure alcohol, not food-grade booze
01[13] <@java> localize the alcohol if possible
01[13] <@java> no excess!! titrate the nitrate
01[13] <@java> any questions?
[13] <mchia> Is sulfur denitration next?
[13] <olaf> nope
[13] <olaf> nope for the questions
01[13] <@java> mchia: yes
[13] <mchia> Thanks
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01[13] <@java> so in all the denitrification schemes we've covered so far, the main primary electron acceptor (i know, blahblahblah) has been carbon
01[13] <@java> and as a result, carbon is typically the limiting reactant for denitrification
01[13] <@java> think about it - sometimes denitrification doesn't move as it should, even in the presence of plenty of anaerobic space
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01[13] <@java> why not... well, the water might be lacking in carbon sources, which can be as simple as CO2 for anaerobes, it could be compartmentalized and out-competed by the carbonate buffering system inherent in seawater
01[13] <@java> so when one doses alcohol, one bypasses the complex chemistry involved with CO2
01[13] <@java> and one adds carbon in a form unbound by matter like detritus
01[13] <@java> but using sulfur can bypass carbon requirements entirely
01[13] <@java> so you don't have to be too concerned about excess nutrients from overdosing, since sulfur would only be utilized by sufate-processing bacteria
01[13] <@java> but it doesn't mean there aren't other pitfalls
01[13] <@java> there are actually some sulfur denitrators on the market today
01[13] <@java> commercially made and designed, and one would think somewhat tuned
01[13] <@java> basically they consist of a canister or series of canisters with multiple stages
01[13] <@java> first is the pre-media, where the water enters and gets exposed to aerobic bacteria, in order to deplete the oxygen int he water
01[13] <@java> this can be anyhting colonizable by bacteria, but somewhat densely packed to accomodate high water/surface contact area
01[13] <@java> some first stages are carbon, filter floss, etc.
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01[13] <@java> anythign that aerobes can colonize.
01[13] <@java> then comes the sulfur beads with or without limestone/aragonite
01[13] <@java> i've seen some reactors which mix the sulfur and aragonite together
01[13] <@java> some witht he aragonite following
01[13] <@java> i'm sorry, before
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01[13] <@java> the aragonite allows for buffering the effluent form the reactor
01[13] <@java> from
01[13] <@java> the idea is that sulfur-metabolizing bacteria colonize directly
01[13] <@java> on sulfur beads, which are suspended in an anaerobic environment
01[13] <@java> (water depeleted of oxygen int he pre-meddia stage)
01[13] <@java> these guys will process nitrates without the considerations of organic carbon
01[13] <@java> but there can be problems, specifically if the sulfur chamber isn't maintained as an anaerobic environment
01[13] <@java> the bacteria will not utilize the sulfur, and instead switch metabolic pathways to plain aerobic respiration, particularly if the sulfur chamber accumulated detritus
01[13] <@java> and you'll just get another "nitrate factory" effect
01[13] <@java> so once again, these denitrators can be kind of tricky
01[13] <@java> and require tuning like alcohol
01[13] <@java> also, there's an upper limit to how much they can process baased on reasonable throughput of water
01[13] <@java> 50ppm is generally considered the upper limit bassed on red-ox potential of sulfur metabolism
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01[13] <@java> so the application is somewhat of a novelty, since 50ppm is considered manageable by other means, like water changes or added rock or sand
01[13] <@java> but i honeslt think that a lot of things in reefkeeping, particularly gadgety stuff like this, are done out of novelty rather than true function
[13] <mchia> I once put sulfur under a DSB, but it didn't seem to do anything to the nitrates (as suggested by an aquarium magazine article).
[13] <mchia> Why doesn't this work?
01[13] <@java> at the bottom of your sandbed there might not have been sufficient flow of nitrate-rich water
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01[13] <@java> to process it in noticeable quantities
01[13] <@java> the denitrator requires some decent flow
01[13] <@java> not so much that oxygenated water gets to the denitrifiers
01[13] <@java> but enough for nitrate-laden water to get in and be processed fast enough to counter the generation of nitrates
[13] <mchia> Overall is it still a good idea to put a little sulfur under the DSB in a new aquarium?
01[13] <@java> well, i think you run the risk of providing a large source of sulfur for the generation of hydrogen sulfide, which is highly toxic
01[13] <@java> particularly when it's compartmentalized long term at the bottom like that
01[13] <@java> with low, low flow
01[13] <@java> but honestly i'm not sure
01[13] <@java> i hadn't heard of that or given it much thought
[13] <olaf> isn't the by-product from the bacteria hydrogen sulfate this would be an acid which is why the agrogate would be last?
[13] <mchia> Thanks for the insight!
[13] <olaf> oops
[13] <olaf> I was trying to find the info and you stated it
01[13] <@java> the risk is of keeping these things compartmentalised, rather than letting it difuse out
01[13] <@java> over time
01[13] <@java> THEN when a huge bolus is released, from some physical disruption, it's like a bomb
02[13] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[13] <@java> so... i'm not nuts about any of these techniques
01[13] <@java> however, if i had to pick one
01[13] <@java> because of a nitrate problem unmanageable by my live rock and sandbed
01[13] <@java> i might try a methanol-fed coil
[13] <walla2butterfly> to much of a risk factor for me
01[13] <@java> it seems to be the basic standard for a lot of large scale aquariums, aquaculture facilities
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01[13] <@java> so it'
01[13] <@java> s
01[13] <@java> practical and effective
[13] <walla2butterfly> I can see that but I am not keeping whales. LOL
[13] <mchia> Aside from chemical denitrators, what is the best method for nitrate reduction?
[13] <mchia> Is macroalgae uptake faster than bacterial denitration?
01[13] <@java> for me, in my opinion, natural denitrification from sand and rock, with a bioload appropriately balanced, maybe even under-loaded to accomodate the occasional dead snail
01[13] <@java> it can be, but it requires some attention
01[13] <@java> can't let leaves, branches die-off
01[13] <@java> should prune it jsut like terrestrial plants to encourage constant growth
[13] <walla2butterfly> I like natural also, struggle with the use of carbon but dont think it is natural
01[13] <@java> i always notice parts of my macros dying off too late
01[13] <@java> leaves going brown or clear, then i'm like DAMN
[13] <olaf> with my 6-g I don't even prune the leaves
01[13] <@java> nutrients released back
01[13] <@java> does it not grow??
[13] <olaf> yes it grows
[13] <olaf> I think that some of the micro inverts do pruning
01[13] <@java> so how do you keep it from overgrowing?
01[13] <@java> oh
[13] <mchia> olaf
oes the macro meltdown?[13] <olaf> I sometimes see the long leaf caulerpa "bleeding"
[13] <olaf> I think that some of the bristle worm feed on the leaves some times
01[13] <@java> i've seen that - something is eating it
01[13] <@java> oh, yep
[13] <olaf> when ever this bleeding occurs soon after a new stem appears from that point
[13] <walla2butterfly> reminds me of the first time I saw some go asexual, no one told me about that, I was like what the *$*&#
01[13] <@java> all went clear?
[13] <olaf> all went clear? <--?
[13] <walla2butterfly> feed the fish, tank looked wonderful, looked over about 1/2 hr later and the tank was all green
01[13] <@java> i've never seen caulerpa go sexual, but i've heard the leaves turn clear from the plant cells evacuating the leaf structure
[13] <walla2butterfly> I freaked to put it mildly
01[13] <@java> and the water turns green
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya the leaves were clear and the tank water was green
[13] <olaf> the bleeding is glue like and clotts fast
[13] <walla2butterfly> had it happpen a couple of times
01[13] <@java> wow. that's a oft-cited but rarely seen occurrence!
01[13] <@java> so many poeple talk about it, but very few actually see it
01[13] <@java> you're LUCKY like that tami
[13] <walla2butterfly> then I had a tang and never could keep it in the tank after that
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[13] <walla2butterfly> sure didnt feel lucky
01[13] <@java> how's your tank?
[13] <walla2butterfly> I am told that no one has ever got a reproduction from it though
[13] <walla2butterfly> better
01[13] <@java> losses?
[13] <walla2butterfly> I couldnt figure out why the nitrates went through the roof so fast
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya but I got a refund for most of what I bought so that is good
01[13] <@java> you done with the water changes?
[13] <walla2butterfly> anyway right after I checked the nitrates last I started using a new food. And I guess I was over dosing, to add with the Anenome problem
[13] <walla2butterfly> yes, but will do one this weekend just normal maintance
01[13] <@java> ugh. i hate water changes
[13] <walla2butterfly> have everything back home
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[13] <walla2butterfly> oh, I was getting really effecient by tues
01[13] <@java> did you lose any livestock?
[13] <mchia> Should caulerpa still be kept when there are other macroalgaes???
[13] <olaf> I started a 3-g nano 4 months ago with just live sand and live rock no filtration no water movement 1 baby chromis and three tiny snails, i break the surface twice a day with a turkey baster water chemistry is good. I feed the chromis 1 - 2 spectrum small pellets a day.
[13] <walla2butterfly> ya, but not much. Been a bad year so far. Had a big lose back at the first of the year when the power outage happened. so I figure my turn is over
01[13] <@java> mchia: hm. not sure why not. not an expert on that though
01[13] <@java> mchia: oh, you mean why risk it if you have other macros taking in nutrients?
01[13] <@java> yeah, maybe give it a miss if you're already stocked with chaetomorpha or something
[13] <mchia> Yes, thanks!
[13] <walla2butterfly> I did get 3 mushrooms from the LFS, about the size of a quarter for $5
01[13] <@java> don't see something for 5$ too often
01[13] <@java> good deal
[13] <mchia> Before time is up, I would appreciate if you could answer my earlier question (before the break)?
[13] <walla2butterfly> they were off shoots from something he had in there before, and so I asked. He makes enough money off me as it is LOL
[13] <olaf> http://www.reefscavengers.com/ under corals
01[13] <@java> oops, can you repeat it?
[13] <olaf> good prices
[13] <olaf> I have ordered from them twice now
01[13] <@java> mchia: got it, nm
[13] <olaf> good stuff
[13] <mchia> I have another question about bacteria populations.
[13] <mchia> By reducing the surface area of live rock/filter media, can we actually reduce the aerobic bacterial population and so have better handle of DOM?
[13] <mchia> Does the emphasis of current crop of books on reef keeping on live rock stacked up like a wall up the entire tank provide too much area for bacteria?
[13] <mchia> Once had a cyano attack and it was all over every live rock!
[13] <walla2butterfly> so, I gather you are happy with them
[13] <olaf> I did get one star that was not so good but they replaced it no problem
02[13] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[13] <@java> interesting question... it might be a valid avenue to explore if excess n-cycle capacity might cause excess DOM
[13] <olaf> the only down fall is shipping with USPS
[13] <olaf> I do not like the USPS
[13] <walla2butterfly> LOL
01[13] <@java> so that the idea i've mentioned, to have exccess capacity to deal with mishaps, might lead to more DOMs
[13] <walla2butterfly> Well going to miss this sat. morn class, it has been great
01[13] <@java> very possible, but i think the trade-off is worth it, i.e. i'd rather my tank be able to absorb and overfeeding or death rather than have a little more DOMs
01[13] <@java> remember, DOM isn't necessarily bad
01[13] <@java> "too much" of course is
[13] <olaf> food for something
01[13] <@java> but there needs to be some for building blocks for growth
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01[13] <@java> besides, if you have rock and sand, you can't stop DOMs
[13] <olaf> I tell all my clients that the aquarium is an ecosystem that needs to be built
01[13] <@java> they're going to be made, and going to accumulate if not removed somehow
[13] <olaf> this mean adding everything that would be found in the natural invironment
01[13] <@java> because you can't have a tank without some bacteria
01[13] <@java> so you'll always have DOM
01[13] <@java> does that cover it mchia?
[13] <mchia> Yes, thanks!
[13] <mchia> Does lack of surface area limit bacteria growth & vice verca (other factors remaining the same)?
01[13] <@java> to some extent, but they can always build upon themselves, too, by thickening biofilms
[13] <mchia> I mean does more surface area = more bacteria?
01[13] <@java> generally, yes
[13] <mchia> Thanks!
01[13] <@java> if enough nutrients are provided, so that one variable can't stay the same
[13] <walla2butterfly> What got me with my tank, was when the ammonia and nitrates were through the roof, the little rock feather worms were just out and blowing in the wind like nothing was wrong
01[13] <@java> we're getting close to the end
01[13] <@java> *sniff
[13] <mchia> Back to my cyano problem, does it mean it would be less of a problem if I have less live rock?
[13] <walla2butterfly> yea *sniffle
01[14] <@java> i don't think so, because cyano is a real biofilm expert, it'll form webs across your tank from glass to glass if it has to
[14] <olaf> I have resolved cyano problems with increased water flow
[14] <mchia> What is the best strategy to prevent/treat cyano?
[14] <olaf> I have aquired aquariums contracts that have been so mismanaged that the cyano has turned into sponges like stuff
[14] <mchia> olaf: What did you do?
01[14] <@java> at the most basic level, get rid of nutrients. flow as olaf mentioned can facilitate greater nutrient uptake and processing, water changes, cyano is also photosynthetic, so lower light
[14] <olaf> white cellular mass .
[14] <olaf> I took a powerhead and blew it all off the rock and installed a power head
[14] <olaf> each week I would blow water at the rock to clean it off
[14] <olaf> The rock would have like little volcanoes of stuff squirting out of its holes
01[14] <@java> ew
[14] <olaf> after 2 - 3 weeks the rock was better
[14] <walla2butterfly> yuck
02[14] * wade ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)
01[14] <@java> well, i hope you guys liked the course and learned some things from it
[14] <olaf> I powerwash the live rock often with a powerhead
[14] <walla2butterfly> Yes, it will be missed
[14] <olaf> yep I did, thanks
01[14] <@java> most importantly, have a "feel" for microbes int he tank and in auxiliary devices
[14] <walla2butterfly> I like to say good bye to everyone now, I have an appt at 11:30 so I need to get going
[14] <walla2butterfly> though I hate too
[14] <mchia> Thanks, Jason, for a great course!
[14] <mchia> Thanks to everyone too!
01[14] <@java> ok, thanks so much for participating!!
[14] <walla2butterfly> yes, much better understanding
[14] <olaf> take care everyone
01[14] <@java> thanks you mchia, and thank you for those insightful questions
01[14] <@java> i've learned from everyone here too!
[14] <walla2butterfly> but then some times that can be dangerous, have so much more to worry about LOL
01[14] <@java> use the force for good lol
[14] <olaf> I will start post stuff in the forum
01[14] <@java> i'll definitely check in there too
[14] <olaf> like picture
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[14] <mchia> olaf: Care to post some pics of your 3g nano?
01[14] <@java> i'd love to see your tanks olaf
[14] <olaf> sure
01[14] <@java> i want to see that anemone client tank
[14] <mchia> Me too!
[14] <olaf> I am going to try to get my friends camera today
01[14] <@java> COOOOOL!
[14] <olaf> takes better pictures then my phone
[14] <olaf> I have to post all my clients aquariums on the web also
01[14] <@java> ok guys, i gotta run too - THANK YOU ALL!!
[14] <olaf> thank you
[14] <olaf> laters
01[14] <@java> i enjoyed our discussions!
[14] <mchia> If you are planning to buy a new camera, I recommend the Fujifilm f-series.
01[14] <@java> later!
[14] <mchia> Great for diving too!
[14] <olaf> I used my friends
Session Close: Sat Feb 16 14:08:45 2008
