Commercial breeding

[SPC]

Thanks for the great artical Frank and the invaluable information it contains.
When talking with my LFS owner about captive raised fish, he continues to tell me that the availability list each week is very small. 90% of the time he says there are no perculas on the list. He has been in business for about 15 years and has seen many trends come and go. His two concerns are,
1. Not enough profit for the large breeding facilities to stay in business over the long term. If they do they will not be able to keep up with supply and demand as he feels they are already having this problem with certain fish.
2. As long as wild caught are offered to the hobbiest at a cheaper price than captive bred, the average hobbiest will pick the cheaper of the two 9 times out of ten.
What do you think the future holds for these facilities vs wild caught? Will there really be any change in the average hobbiest attitude as long as they can still purchase cheap wild caught fish?
Thanks,
Steve

 

[FMarini]

Steve:
Thanks for the question. You bring up two very common points. 1) there is not enuf money to be made to drive the economy of captive raised/captive bred (CR/CB) fish, and 2)-that wildcaught fish will still be cheaper than CR/CB fish.

I can address the first point by saying that the mentality of the hobbist must be changed (or should i say redirected) over the next few years to understand the plight of our oceans and the fish we find in them. If hobbists are not willing to pay more dollars for their current stock then I see no way a commercial firm will ever survive. This mentality has to somehow permeate thru the fish community, I would love to see some sort of advertising about how bad off our oceans are and that commerically grown fish can replace them at no deteriment to the ocean. Maybe one of these "No Fur" type campaigns.
Anyway, your LFS owner is fairly on the money. I know that C-quest and ORA will still provide wholsalers w/ fish, and if your LFS owner wants to go directly thru C-quest he can do it, as long as the minimums are met. They sell mainly clowns and psuedochromis.
I would say that other fish just are not fecund enuf (like banggais) or have difficult offspring (like clown gobies) to make large scale production feasible (read economical).

The second point is one which I see little headway, in that LFS owners see cheaper fish as a way to make more profit. The bottomline is that an LFS can sell a wildcaught fish at 300% over his price, yet he will only be able to sell a CR/CB fish at 30% over his costs. Think about it, the hobbist is used to paying $40 for a fish. The LFS can buy a wildcaught one for $4/ea, he retails for $40, his take is $36. A CR/CB fish may cost him $20/ea, but he can still only sell it for $40 since higher prices will drive customer away. The nice thing w/ CR/CB fish is that they are often times more hardy, better prepared to live in a tank, and eat prepared foods more readily than a wildcaught one (read less die in route and in the LS tanks). Again this will take education on both sides, the understanding that LFS still can make money and that the customer will have to pay more for his fish.
I'm not sure what the futrue holds, my gut feeling is that the govt will shut down imports of many corals, and inverts w/in the next 5yrs, and I suspect a number of fish will go on CITES protection. Once this happens, fish will only be obtained leagally thru commercial production, then we'll see if hobbists are willing to pay.
My dream would be that hobbists will wake up and smell the selcon, decide that its worth it for them to buy CR/CB fish, and that the oceans will not be dpleted.
Will it happen I don't know.
Thats why I focused my opening column the way I did. I appreciate the comments and hope my rambling addressed your question
Cheers
frank

 

[SPC]

Posted by Frank:
This mentality has to somehow permeate thru the fish community, I would love to see some sort of advertising about how bad off our oceans are and that commerically grown fish can replace them at no deteriment to the ocean. Maybe one of these "No Fur" type campaigns.

Any ideas on how this might get started? BTW, I agree with all you said in your post. It is also my understanding that Germany and Japan currently get first pick of wild caught fish because they are willing to pay higher prices, have you heard this?
Steve

 

[FMarini]

Steve:
Yes i have heard of this and i have seen it online. Are you familar w/ Splash? Its a japanese fish/coral retailer (he has a website).
He gets some amazing fish, almost all rare, (even a "captive bred leafy sea dragon"($5KUS) and his prices make anything you see in the US look puny.

I wish i knew how to change the mentality of the hobby and the retailers. I'm willing to listen.
thanks again
frank

 

[Louis Z]

Hey guys I have been looking at a few BB and most of the aquarists really dont look to propagate SW fish mostly just compatabilty, what looks cool and what eats this and that. I am new to SW yet I have had FW aquariums for a long time- Difference I see is in FW there are many aquarists looking to specialize in a certain species or group to breed and raise. Also a lot is known about live foods and eating habits. I just started about a year ago in a quest to learn as much as I could about SW live foods which is essential in breeding. Very difficult to find info I have to resort to looking thru aquaculture journals and thru the www to the different govt supported aquaculture org. to find info. Most general aquarists never research or concentrate efforts on one species. Most FW aquafarms rely on aquarists to find out details then they mass produce. In FW captive bred are always cheaper than wild caught. I cant see how this cant transfer to SW in the future. One way for these SWfarms to reap profits is to culture the rare and unusual. I know that they are too busy trying to manage what they have yet I can see that SW aquarists taste is more than just dottybacks and anemonefish. Promising news from the Hawaii group on raising pygmy and masked angels. It will take awhile for this info to trickle down. In the mean time aquarists must learn to propagate live food from micro &macro algae to copepods to mysid shrimp and beyond. The hobby has relied way to much on rotifers and brineshrimp- they are inferior and must move on. Only the advanced can see the closed door policy in the future and it will take stuffing it down the hobby's throat for it to listen. It takes me a while to climb down off my tall soapbox Louis Z.

 

[Martin Moe]

Interesting topic. I remember when.... (Indulge me a little here) Back in the early 1970's I raised clownfish in commercial quantities (100's to 1000's) when no one else knew how... It was fun till I tried to sell them. The shops and wholesalers said, in essence,

"Wow, tank raised marine fish, and clownfish, a most popular fish (which was one reason I picked them to work with). We certainly want to buy them, Let's see, we pay 25 cents each for then out of the Philippines, and then there is the shipping and the mortality that we also have to pay for, but you have to look at the numbers on the price list, and it's still only 0.25 cents that we have to pay for them, and tank reared fish should be cheaper than wild caught so we should only have to pay you 0.20 cents for them, and of course. you should deliver them to us for nothing, and if there is mortality, well, you'll have to replace them."

The best I could do in those early days was to get 0.35 cents each and include a 3 to 5 percent overcount just in case there was any mortality. This was a bleak introduction on the economics of rearing marine fish in competion with wild fish. A breeder has to maintain brood stock, invest a great deal of time in rearing larval fish and then use tank space and overhead for 4 to 12 months to grow out the fish to market size. A collector/wholesaler/retailer turns over the tank space as quickly as possible, day or weeks, and so his facility is much more productive, a turnover rate of maybe 30 to 40 times that of a breeder.

Well things have changed... Marine fish are much more expensive now, (I'll admit it wasn't fun seeing a clownfish that I had reared and grown out for 6 months and then sold for 0.35 cents in a shop with a price tag of $6.00.), and there is a much higher level of awarness of the importance and desirability of tank reared fish, and there are many more tank reared species available, and the economic picture for breeders is a bit more favorable, and a few small breeders who are willing to put in the excessive time required can break even or maybe actually make a few dollars. and some of the larger breeders are working hard to make the economic potential apparent in marine fish propagation a reality, but all in all, as far as the big picure is concerned, the market structure still says that there is little, if any, premium to tank raised over wild caught.

Things will change again, however, and the future is brighter then before. Technolgy will improve and become more accessable, more species will become easier to rear, prices will rise and if the balance between what the hobbyist is willing to pay and what it costs the breeder to produce is kind, then the stimulus to breed marine fish will increase. Its a funny thing, this marine aquarium hobby, its a blend of love and economics with economics in the driver's seat and love in the gas tank. It will always be going somewhere, we just don't where, or how fast.

MAM

 

[delbeek]

I think the real problem lies in the sales end of the industry. I think a lot of recent companies have come to the (correct) conclusion that they cannot compete directly against wild caught sources if they sell via the usual chain of wholesaler-retailer-hobbyist. That is why so many have gone to direct sales to hobbyists especially via the Internet using UPS or FedEx. Cutting out some of the middlemen improves profit margins to the point where they can compete on price and still make money. C-quest learned this just before being hit by that hurricane a few years ago. They had just started to see black ink instead of red.

Also, with the increasing involvement of governement agencies in the trade coral reef organisms (e.g. Coral Reef Task Force), I would not be surprised if import restrictions are placed on some fish that can be produced in captivity. Its a touchy subject but may come to pass.

JCD

 

[MandarinFish]

Help me out here....

as a concientious hobbyist I want to find good outlets for tank/captive raised (or bred) fish and corals.

I know of some places that breed, but mostly they won't sell directly to hobbyists.

Has ORA or any others begun to sell directly?

I hate going to an LFS to request tank-raised, and I *definitely* don't trust many shops to carry them.

A little help here on direct-to-hobbyist places?

PS Happy Earth Day!

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: MandarinFish ]</p>

 

[delbeek]

Most sell direct to retailers, perhaps some private breeders sell direct to hobbyists ... try Morgan Lidster at www.Inlandaquactics.com

JCD

 

[SPC]

There is a toll free # on the ORA site that you can call to get information on dealers in your area. The person I talked with was very helpful and seemed to genuinely care about getting me the proper information, they seem to be a class act.
Steve

 

[flameangel1]

As the owner of a LFS, I think we, as dealers, have a large responsibility to educate hobbyists as far as captive raised animals. We are in direct contact with the hobbyists (albeit ,not those who choose to buy from unseen, but cheaper internet places).

I refuse to bring in any fish from the wild, if it can be breed or larval raised. I also refuse to bring in any coral that I can (and do) propagate in my shop.

I have no problem getting my customers to understand why this is important and also have no problem with the higher price on domestic fish.
(I can and do sell my coral props cheaper than wild caught)
For the record- this is NOT a "chop shop" either.

If one takes the time to educate the hobbyist/customer (and it does take hours of time)
and develop a rapport with that person-they in turn ,understand completely and also help spread that education to other hobbyists and LFS.

But, it definately does take time and patience.
It can not be done with the current trend of " selling product" as most dealers feel is the way to run a saltwater business.

Of course , I do not subscribe to "the almighty dollar", either, so may not see the over all
picture as others do.

In short- if the only available animals are domestic- then the customers will buy domestic !!!!

 

[SPC]

Posted by flameangel:
In short- if the only available animals are domestic- then the customers will buy domestic !!!!

-But as usual with this sort of topic there is another side. If wild collection is halted because all fished are tank raised, or other reasons, will the reefs suffer for this. There are some such as MAC, and me BTW, who believe there must be economic value placed on the reefs of the world in order to save them.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

I have a few comments on captive reared clownfish. First there is currently a U.S. shortage of captive reared A.percula. ORA has doubled the number of breeding pairs so the problem is being addressed. I would imagine other breeders are also stepping up production of this species.I have seen some of the big box pet stores using this species as a loss leader which has probably led to the current shortage.

It is my understanding that MAC would prefer to see aquaculture done in the countries of origin. I agree with this logic to some extent. Allowing the Island people the means of feeding their families in a sustainable manner is the correct thing to do. Actually wild clownfish can probably be harvested in a very sustainable manner. Of all the fish I have ever had to catch out of a reef tank I would rate the common clowns as the very easiest. They never run and hide if there are no anemones present. Good collectors could harvest the some of the juveniles that hang around the anemones, and leave the anemone and resident pair in place. I support aquaculture, but I also would like to see the collectors better trained, educated, and compensated for their conservation efforts.

 

[AF Founder]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dizzy:
<strong>I have a few comments on captive reared clownfish. First there is currently a U.S. shortage of captive reared A.percula. ORA has doubled the number of breeding pairs so the problem is being addressed. I would imagine other breeders are also stepping up production of this species.I have seen some of the big box pet stores using this species as a loss leader which has probably led to the current shortage.

It is my understanding that MAC would prefer to see aquaculture done in the countries of origin. I agree with this logic to some extent. Allowing the Island people the means of feeding their families in a sustainable manner is the correct thing to do. Actually wild clownfish can probably be harvested in a very sustainable manner. Of all the fish I have ever had to catch out of a reef tank I would rate the common clowns as the very easiest. They never run and hide if there are no anemones present. Good collectors could harvest the some of the juveniles that hang around the anemones, and leave the anemone and resident pair in place. I support aquaculture, but I also would like to see the collectors better trained, educated, and compensated for their conservation efforts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Mg,

One very important thing to bear in mind is that collectors must be sure to leave the breeding pair of anemonefish with the the anemone, otherwise butterfly fish will eat the anemonies, leaving future generations of anemonefish without a home.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Steve you stopped short, Gentlemen, What is to stop the fish food industry from blasting the reefs to Heniochus if the less destructive coral clipping Import is stopped? and what is going to stop the Islands from building more Airport runways With live coral rock as the fill dirt? {for "Ecotourism"}I estimated a while back that the Jumbo jet Airstrip they built{Maldives?} used more Kilos of live coral as fill then this hobby has or will {Using past Cities Reports}for the next thirty years! I maintain that this hobby is the best protector and educator the reefs have? Its time we as a hobby use the truth as a weapon to save the reefs from the True enemies it faces!

 

[AF Founder]

Kalkbreath,

You speak the truth -- only tourism and biophile's love of living things will save us all from a world of virtual reality and plastic worshipped by necrophiles.

 

[Anonymous]

some questionsi've been f.w.hobb.since '71. and s.w. from '79-with commercial farming and retail background).while working in mass. retail store, i had occasion to deal w/cquest, and got disgusted both with their snotty attitude, and what seemed to be the increasingly deteriorating quality of their stock.(they didn't seem to get the idea that selling direct to a retail outlet might have been a better long term strategy, and after the second shipment i ordered,(having been able to meet their min.'s) started to get lots of stunted, and deformed fish. they didn't seem to be to interested, at the time(around '96-'97) in addressing those issues. has this, to anyone's experience, changed?
around '90-'92, red sea fish farms were breeding quite a few species, in addition to clowns, in their facility in eilat, israel.(visited them every coupla wks. after contacting Dr.Robert Brons for anemone spawning issues)-the species of fish they were breeding could not be sold overseas 'cuz thy were protected in israel- but they were still being exported from wild caughts through jordan and egypt!(food for thought).
why do y'all think that even species of coral that grow like weeds in captivity(example- star polyps.mushrooms, and others), are still being taken from the wild? wouldn't it make sense for cites convention to ban stuff for colection not just by criteria of wild status, but also by criteria of necessity of collection(in other words, any species that can easily be propagated by an amateur hobbyist should be considered as non allowed for collection in the wild?- thereby 'forcing' the industry to deal in home grown stock?).it seems, that star polyps, etc. should easily be mass produced by a relatively small amount of facilities to meet domestic demand-i know alot of places allready do this, but i think they're not going about the economics the right way(trying to make a profit too soon with pricing structure).
personal experience also has shown me that complete non enforcement of inspections of shipments help allow shipment of species, that non only are illegal, but forced upon retailers who didn't even order them(you wanna know how many times i got gonioporas and crinoids, among other stuff in my shipments when i never even ordered 'em?- way too many!!)
don't mean to preach to the converted- your thoughts would be appreciated

 

[Louis Z]

If given the 5yr. estimate of being regulated by the government- There is no way we could come up with the captive breeding of the other 95% of fish. As for Cites that would probably account for some fish yet allow our hobby to thrive. Yet, the problem of reef destruction and its inabilty to reproduce itself quickly will be the demise of our hobby and food supply- I believe that enough info is out there stating the conditions of the reef both on the www and print . In AFM, articles on the state of reefs have been published - most aquarists will read the magazines so they are aware of the situation. I think that in general most hobbyists are not willing to do anything about it - they seem to be trapped in their own little aquarium and choose to ignore the situation and leave the worrying to others. I think the race to captively reproduce is on. I see alot of captive reproduction of food fish(grouper, drum, mahi mahi, turbot, salmon, cod etc.)because govts. are worrying about their economies not for the sake of saving species. So govts spend millions on research. One can say that very little is spent by govts on MO in relation to food species. So one can argue Hey MO just doesnt have the funding or personnel to find solutions. Thats a lot of Squat- How many BBs-how many thousands of members- multiplied by the average amount of $ spent by one of them and you probably get millions of $- we as SW hobbiests do not pool and concentrate our resources to solve our own problems -so in five to ten years if we havent progressed then so be it for the govt to slam the door. Why should we be allowed to contribute to the destruction of the reefs. How many food chains will perish and what consequence will it have on our food supply if the reefs disappear or diminish. Whether it be global warming, pollution (Ind. and Ag), or our own destructive collecting habits we will see them disappear. Louis Z.

 

[eco-tropic]

Frank,

Can you email me a link to this "Splash" site? I think you were also going to email me about techniques for difficult clown rearing?


Jeff

 

[FMarini]

Hey Jeff:
i will email you at your home email addy if i may. I will ask about some specific on the clownfry rearing.
As far as SPLASH
http://www.splash-sea.co.jp/top.html

this is the front page, you will have to figure out which are the links you interested in...The site is in japanese