Can ick last for months?

[reefer2011]

The link above has a tab in it titled 'Treatments', you will find full instructions in there on how to treat with either Hyposalinity or Copper. You need to do it properly, so I do suggest you read the entire treatment information which includes instructions on HOW to properly lower the salinity to the correct level.

Wow, what an informative article. I am going to try this as soon as I can catch all my fish. That is easier said than done.

Thank you all for your input.

 

[reefer2011]

I had a situation where my new fish, that was totaly healthy in someones tank, came down with ich and I dipped him in malachite green for a half hour and returned him and all went well.

I have malachite green. Has anyone else tried this?

 

[FlyTekk]

Give me a break. How could there be ich around if they cant go more then 10, 20 or 100 generations.

Here take a break and read.... #14

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...e-treatment/20321-marine-ich-myths-facts.html



http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

 

[marrone]

That came from this study:

"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora."

The problem with this is that with any controlled experiment the results mayn't produce what is, or will, actually happen in an aquarium. You'll find a lot of people have ich for well past 10 to 11 months, and sometimes it will kill new fish even after it's been in the tank for over 1 year. So, if its been weaken that shouldn't be the case.

 

[FlyTekk]

I wonder how many of those people didnt also introduce corals and other things other than fish within those 10-11 months. Not too many people have a system where they are done introducing new things. And the people that do.....

Probably dont have ich?

Also it seems the experiment was done on one fish at a time. In a tank their may be multiple fish, giving a 10-11 month period per fish? Or not?

 

[FlyTekk]

Also the article itself mentions they had to keep changing the fish or else it may develop an imunity.

 

[marrone]

You also need to take into account that the ich was harvest and moved around, which could have possibly weaken it over time.

 

[marrone]

Also the article itself mentions they had to keep changing the fish or else it may develop an imunity.

Nobody really knows if a fish develops/builds up immunity from ich or if the fish just is able to live with it, while other fish can't. It's also possible that the ich mayn't attack the fish or reinfect the fish again. In all likelihood the fish is infected with ich and is just living with in. You probably don't notice it as you would do with a fish that is really infected, where you would see white spots and a lot of scratching, but if you study the fish you would probably see some signs of it over time.

 

[FlyTekk]

It could. And im sure it did. But 10-11 months... 7 different times. Is an intersting find indeed.

And can help explain why some people feel the ich vanishes (or atleast weakens.) If they weaken in time, and fish get immune... it could be a mixture of the 2 things.

 

[FlyTekk]

All i know, is that ich seems to have a stronger hold on things when their first introduced. After that it seems to weaken for one reason or another. And this not just me. This is just about every account i hear with other people. Then again some strands me be more deadly than others and i only speak to select people... etc etc... but my opinion is there is something going on we're not sure of. But ich is stronger at first then any other time ive witnessed, read or heard of.

 

[marrone]

The problem is that it doesn't explain it, as you'll find people fighting ich for years. Some fish will be able to fight it off, while newly introduce fish may get it and die. Then again in some cases once the new fish is infect it can lead to an outbreak that wipes out the whole tank or fish that before were immune.

 

[marrone]

All i know, is that ich seems to have a stronger hold on things when their first introduced. After that it seems to weaken for one reason or another. And this not just me. This is just about every account i hear with other people. Then again some strands me be more deadly than others and i only speak to select people... etc etc... but my opinion is there is something going on we're not sure of. But ich is stronger at first then any other time ive witnessed, read or heard of.

It only seem to have a stronger hold on when first introduced, probably because there are more fish in the tank to get infected. Once fish have died you general have less of a population to get reinfected, which can make it seem like it's having less of an impact. Also, the fish that may make it are usually tougher and stronger, though that's not always the case as tough and healthy fish can and do get ich and die from it.

Just think, if it came from someone tank, and it was already weaken, then it shouldn't have any impact on your tank, but that isn't the case though. If it's weaken the fish should be able to fight it off, but that's not the case either.

I'm not sure who you're talking to, or what accounts you're getting, but what you'll find it that the people who have fish die usually aren't the ones talking, so you're probably only getting one side of the story.


There are plenty of different strains, some are very deadly, killing in a couple of days, and in some case even quicker. The bigger problem is nobody is really sure if it's ich or not, as there are many different parasites that can and do give off the same symptoms as ich.


You need to remember, if ich was that easy to get rid of, then it wouldn't be the problem that it is.

 

[KathyC]

It only seem to have a stronger hold on when first introduced, probably because there are more fish in the tank to get infected. Once fish have died you general have less of a population to get reinfected, which can make it seem like it's having less of an impact. Also, the fish that may make it are usually tougher and stronger, though that's not always the case as tough and healthy fish can and do get ich and die from it.

Just think, if it came from someone tank, and it was already weaken, then it shouldn't have any impact on your tank, but that isn't the case though. If it's weaken the fish should be able to fight it off, but that's not the case either.

I'm not sure who you're talking to, or what accounts you're getting, but what you'll find it that the people who have fish die usually aren't the ones talking, so you're probably only getting one side of the story.


There are plenty of different strains, some are very deadly, killing in a couple of days, and in some case even quicker. The bigger problem is nobody is really sure if it's ich or not, as there are many different parasites that can and do give off the same symptoms as ich.


You need to remember, if ich was that easy to get rid of, then it wouldn't be the problem that it is.

+1 If I had a nickle for every person who has been on here over the years and asked about Ich and then vanished from the site...I may not be rich, but I'd have a good chunck of money.

Also if you read other forums (i rarely do), but if I am googling something I do run across posts of members from here who posted on those other sites that they had an ich issue...and they didn't ever show back up in the hobby either.

Something else to note is that some of the people most familiar with ich will also tell you that the supposed immunity may only be a temporary thing, nor does it apply to all types of fish, so the bottom line is if you want to get rid of ich, you need to do either a proper copper treatment or hyposalinity and leave the DT devoid of fish for at least 6-8 weeks, or it is likely you still do have Ich in the tank.

From Paul B:

This happens frequently and it used to happen to me. You are correct that you have ich in your tank and it is not affecting your fish. They have become immune or undoubtably they also would be dead. But you said, they are living fine.
I believe many fish in many tanks have ich but it is not causing problems, I am certain it is in my tank but has not caused problems in many years. If I put in a new fish, it sometimes exhibits some spots, but they disappear....

..climbing up on her soap box...

I worry when info like this is posted as folks may think their tanks are safe from this parasite.

Judging stictly by the number of people here who sell corals from their tanks to others here...it concerns me greatly that they would be ok with thinking their fish are immune or cured when they have not used one of the 2 proven ways to kill this parsasite..but still think it's ok to sell the corals out of that same tank

 

[Paul B]

I worry when info like this is posted as folks may think their tanks are safe from this parasite.

No body's fish are safe from this paracite as we are not safe from any disease even if we are inoculated against it, but it is still a fact, that for some unknown reason, some tanks do not get ich no matter what you do.
And some tanks are plagued by it no matter what you do. If we can figure that out, that would be the end of most of these threads.
All Noobs should quarantine because I can almost guarantee your tank will be infected with fish losses. But we will find the secret as to why it does not affect all tanks. Thats why I proposed that experiment to the original poster.
If we don't try things, we will never learn anything.
I want to know why some tanks never get it. I don't get any fish with ich that I can experiment on.

 

[Imbarrie]

I think ich may not live long in the confines of our tanks. The long term prospects of this parasite may depend on fresh hosts. This is available in the ocean and at the LFS but not in a reefers tank.
Like flytek, I had signs of ich that went away and have never returned even when adding a new yellow tang and a lionfish. Two species that are susceptible.
I have neon gobies that are actively grooming my fish and I think they help.

 

[FlyTekk]

It only seem to have a stronger hold on when first introduced, probably because there are more fish in the tank to get infected. Once fish have died you general have less of a population to get reinfected, which can make it seem like it's having less of an impact. Also, the fish that may make it are usually tougher and stronger, though that's not always the case as tough and healthy fish can and do get ich and die from it.

Just think, if it came from someone tank, and it was already weaken, then it shouldn't have any impact on your tank, but that isn't the case though. If it's weaken the fish should be able to fight it off, but that's not the case either.

I'm not sure who you're talking to, or what accounts you're getting, but what you'll find it that the people who have fish die usually aren't the ones talking, so you're probably only getting one side of the story.


There are plenty of different strains, some are very deadly, killing in a couple of days, and in some case even quicker. The bigger problem is nobody is really sure if it's ich or not, as there are many different parasites that can and do give off the same symptoms as ich.


You need to remember, if ich was that easy to get rid of, then it wouldn't be the problem that it is.

Ich never claimed a fish in my tank. Maybe thats why i dont see it as deadly as you. I may have a weaker strain. And again same goes for a lot of reefers i know. I even used to tell people that i would sell a frag to or a fish "hey i had ich when i first started but havnt seen it in 2+years, the pros and the mods say its still in my tank" And they would tell me no prob. LoL. And i mean over and over again the same response. I got the feeling that ich was no biggy and if you keep your tank params and keep your fishes feed and happy that i shouldnt have a prob.

Again thats just a feeling ive got. Now after 2 years, of not siting and no issues, will i breakdown my whole tank to remove all fish to seperate them for 6 weeks? No.

Not because it aint the right thing to do because it may as well be, but because they seem fine and happy. 2 clowns taking turns hosting 2 diff anemones, Blue tang grazing all day. They all eat like beast... fat.... etc etc.

I just feel moving them will stress them. When the Ich no one can see wasnt stressing them at all.

 

[Paul B]

Ich is not usually a problem any more but when this hobby started in about 1971 all fish had ich and we had to keep copper in the water continousely or you would lose averything overnight. We didn't feed the fish as good then and we didn't use live rock. We took out the dead corals to bleach them every couple of weeks and the fish were never in great shape.

 

[marrone]

Ich never claimed a fish in my tank. Maybe thats why i dont see it as deadly as you. I may have a weaker strain. And again same goes for a lot of reefers i know. I even used to tell people that i would sell a frag to or a fish "hey i had ich when i first started but havnt seen it in 2+years, the pros and the mods say its still in my tank" And they would tell me no prob. LoL. And i mean over and over again the same response. I got the feeling that ich was no biggy and if you keep your tank params and keep your fishes feed and happy that i shouldnt have a prob.

Again thats just a feeling ive got. Now after 2 years, of not siting and no issues, will i breakdown my whole tank to remove all fish to seperate them for 6 weeks? No.

Not because it aint the right thing to do because it may as well be, but because they seem fine and happy. 2 clowns taking turns hosting 2 diff anemones, Blue tang grazing all day. They all eat like beast... fat.... etc etc.

I just feel moving them will stress them. When the Ich no one can see wasnt stressing them at all.

You mayn't see it as deathly but it is, and claims a lot of fish too, to the point where people leave the hobby from it. As I posted before, you never hear from the people whom fish die, only from the people that fish have survive. It's the same with people that never QT their fish, and swear that they've never had a problem for years, only to catch a bad case of ich, or something worst, and lost fish, or in extreme cases, lose all their fish. It's also possible that the ich may have died off in your tank, or kept some what at bay. This is something that is possible, especially in a reef tank with high flow, filter socks and corals and other filter feeders that eat parasites in the water. It great to have good water parameters, and feed your fish well, but even health fish can and do get ich, and a lot of them do die from it. Then again you'll find people who don't ever do water changes, and have pretty bad water conditions, have fish that are ich free.

Stress is a funny thing, regardless of how large or well kept our setups are the fish that we keep are stressed out to various degrees. There is the stressed from being kept in a small tank, to lights coming on and going off all of a sudden, water temp swings, territorial battle with tank mates and just having people walking by the tank. People talk about not wanting to move their fish because they feel that it will stress them out even more, though if they're infected with a parasite the treatment probably will reduce the stress that they're getting from the parasite, and depending on the degree that they're infected, the relief of stress could be great.

Paul, I not sure you can say that ich isn't a problem anymore, it maybe easier to cure then back in the 70's but it's not something that can be taken for granted. Unfortunately it only take one fish, coral or piece of LR carrying something to wipe out your tank.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, I not sure you can say that ich isn't a problem anymore,

Marrone, you are correct. I should have used different words for that. I meant to say that our tanks are in much better shape now due to live rock, foods and better understanding. As you know, because I have seen your tanks, ich is not much of a problem for older tanks, maybe it is because our tanks are healthier or maybe something happens in older tanks to surpress it. I really don't know but I have never heard of a hobbiest who has been doing this for 10 or 15 years loseing all of his fish to ich. There probably are some people but it seems to be a problem for almost everyone with a newer tank.

 

[FlyTekk]

I agree. Also, i bet there are some knee jerk reactions with some reefers when they first spot ich that you wouldnt see with a veteran reefer.

It took alot for me to listen to what people told me... "dont do anything, keep your params perfect, feed well, soak food in selcon/zoe/garlic.... you'll be okay" Everyone i spoke to told me the same thing. Meanwhile the "official" word was 6 weeks fallow main tank and hyposalinity QT.

During this time i wanted hyposalinity, i wanted cleaner shrimps, qt, fallow, water changes, raise temp, lower temp, lower salinity just a hair, Lower it more, remove certain fish, add others.... etc etc.... knee jerk reactions. And who knows how many deaths because of it.

If i had the most deadly strand of ich i'd probably be saying something completely different right now. :0)

If it were'nt for the veterans that told me dont worry you'd be fine, i may have killed all my fish before the ich did. :0l