- Location
- Deer Park,Long Island,11729
That's what I'm thinking and where Cybermezs pump might come in handy?
Adding the ability to pull more air.
Thanks for the tumbling idea I will try that
A Tale of High Indoor CO2 and Declining pH
- Thread starter cybermeez
- Start date
Adding the ability to pull more air.
Thanks for the tumbling idea I will try that
- Location
- Hudson Yards
I *might* have some progress to report. The new Super Luft pump arrived Friday via overnight mail (gotta love Amazon Prime) and I hooked it up that evening. The intake of the pump is a small metal tube sticking out of the back. So, rather that sealing the pump in an airtight box I just slipped some 1/2" ID plastic tubing onto it and ran the other end out the window (I'm not drilling holes in the HVAC enclosure until I'm sure I have this figured out).
The output of the pump is a 3/8" barb. I ran some 3/8" ID tubing from the output to the input of the scrubber canister. For the first few days the output going from the scrubber to an airstone in the sump was normal 1/4 airline. I wasn't seeing any difference between the little Tetra pump I first used and the Super Luft. I was pretty confident that I should have given how much more air the Luft Pump puts out.
I suspected the cause was the size difference between the tube going into the scrubber vs. the smaller tube coming out. So, last night I went to Home Depot, got some more 3/8" tubing and a 3/8" John Guest fitting and swapped it for the 1/4" stuff on the scrubber output and let it run overnight. Because of the larger tubing I had to special order a koi pond air stone so I'm not using one at the moment. I didn't notice any appreciable difference in the pH when I checked it this morning. But the tubing may have shifted a bit overnight causing the end to pop up above the water level. I repositioned it, dosed the tank with some kalkwasser and went to work.
When I got home tonight the pH was pretty close to where it was when I left. Previously I would see more of a drop during the day. I'm not 100% ready to call it a success because it needs to run for a few days to determine if the lack of the daytime pH decline is a pattern or an anomaly. If it is for real I would think the pond air stone will help to further diffuse the scrubbed air being piped in from outside.
One other thing of note is I changed the medium in the scrubber, but when I refilled it this time I put about 4" of granulated carbon separated by a sponge beneath roughly 6" of soda lime. I was concerned about pollution from the idling trucks 5 stories below my window, hence the carbon. I wonder if using less soda lime like Geraud mentioned is also a factor in today's results?
The output of the pump is a 3/8" barb. I ran some 3/8" ID tubing from the output to the input of the scrubber canister. For the first few days the output going from the scrubber to an airstone in the sump was normal 1/4 airline. I wasn't seeing any difference between the little Tetra pump I first used and the Super Luft. I was pretty confident that I should have given how much more air the Luft Pump puts out.
I suspected the cause was the size difference between the tube going into the scrubber vs. the smaller tube coming out. So, last night I went to Home Depot, got some more 3/8" tubing and a 3/8" John Guest fitting and swapped it for the 1/4" stuff on the scrubber output and let it run overnight. Because of the larger tubing I had to special order a koi pond air stone so I'm not using one at the moment. I didn't notice any appreciable difference in the pH when I checked it this morning. But the tubing may have shifted a bit overnight causing the end to pop up above the water level. I repositioned it, dosed the tank with some kalkwasser and went to work.
When I got home tonight the pH was pretty close to where it was when I left. Previously I would see more of a drop during the day. I'm not 100% ready to call it a success because it needs to run for a few days to determine if the lack of the daytime pH decline is a pattern or an anomaly. If it is for real I would think the pond air stone will help to further diffuse the scrubbed air being piped in from outside.
One other thing of note is I changed the medium in the scrubber, but when I refilled it this time I put about 4" of granulated carbon separated by a sponge beneath roughly 6" of soda lime. I was concerned about pollution from the idling trucks 5 stories below my window, hence the carbon. I wonder if using less soda lime like Geraud mentioned is also a factor in today's results?
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- Location
- Nutley, NJ
Sounds like you might be having some luck. I've had great success with my tupperware unit. Before my pH would range between 7.79 - 7.9 now I'm my low is around 8.05 with a high around 8.15, and its pretty consistent.
I'm still working on another solution with a different type of pump that will hopefully be a bit quieter. Currently I had to place the tupperware on a piece of doubled up filter floss to quiet it. If for some reason it vibrates out of place it makes a ton of noise. So hopefully once I get the right casing for this new setup it will work great. The suction on this little coin sized pump is far stronger than the big luft pump, almost four times as much. Its crazy!
I'm still working on another solution with a different type of pump that will hopefully be a bit quieter. Currently I had to place the tupperware on a piece of doubled up filter floss to quiet it. If for some reason it vibrates out of place it makes a ton of noise. So hopefully once I get the right casing for this new setup it will work great. The suction on this little coin sized pump is far stronger than the big luft pump, almost four times as much. Its crazy!
- Location
- Hudson Yards
How many cubic feet per minute does your little pump pull and where did you finally buy it from?
I got the smaller of the two Super Luft pumps available and it does 1.34 cfm while the big one does 2.3. It depends on how the pond air stone impacts the equation, but I may wish I got the larger pump.
The only drawbacks I can see for the Super Luft series is they run very, very hot and it's a bit noisy. Not really loud, but I wouldn't want it if I had my tank in my bedroom.
Last edited:
- Location
- Nutley, NJ
Well it doesn't measure the output the same way, it measures it in psi. The pump is from a company that specializes in micro air and liquid pumps for medical and air sampling devices.
I have a feeling it's going to work well. Until I get all the proper parts I won't actually know. Thankfully I have data on the current pump setup to see what works better. Right now I'm just waiting on the proper tubing, and enclosure.
I'll keep you posted since we are both trying to achieve the same goal.
I have a feeling it's going to work well. Until I get all the proper parts I won't actually know. Thankfully I have data on the current pump setup to see what works better. Right now I'm just waiting on the proper tubing, and enclosure.
I'll keep you posted since we are both trying to achieve the same goal.
- Location
- Hudson Yards
I'm finding that without an air stone it's tricky to keep the air line under water, even when it's weighted down. This little Super Luft pump puts out a lot of air for its size. That pond air stone can't get here soon enough.
- Location
- Nutley, NJ
Which one did you buy again? Can you not dial it down? Put a valve on it to control air flow?
- Location
- Hudson Yards
I got a Coralife Super Luft SL38 Pump. I don't want to dial it back because wide open the amount of air it puts out *seems* to help hold the pH at 8.10-8.15 after dosing Kalk or two part. I want to keep it running unchanged for several days to see if it is. I'm keeping an eye on my Apex's pH log.
- Location
- Hudson Yards
Now THIS is an air stone! That's a dime sitting on top of it. It's in the sump now and the Apex will track things overnight to see what happens. On a side note the skimmer pump crapped out. Don't know why yet but it totally seized up so it may not be salvageable. Nice pump too...one of the really power efficient Water Blaster's.
- Location
- Bellmore, NY
Is it possible you pushing too much air and not enough water going through the pump? Not sure if that's possible or not...
I guess though you aren't going to your skimmer intake...so never mind,
I guess though you aren't going to your skimmer intake...so never mind,
- Location
- Long Island
I too have always battled low ph since I had setup my 180g. I live in a basement apartment with very few windows. my ph during the day would be close to 8.05 on most hot summer days. I have noticed, just like mikec had stated previously, that as long as your alk, ca, mag, and salinity are within the correct parameters and don't fluctuate too much your tank will be fine.
when we start getting crazy about ph or something else... look at your tank. see if things are not happy. 9 out of 10 times its usually something simple like exhausted media or out of c02 for the calcium reactor. I always had a big concern about my low ph and for the last two years it was never the root of any problems that I had with my tank.
when we start getting crazy about ph or something else... look at your tank. see if things are not happy. 9 out of 10 times its usually something simple like exhausted media or out of c02 for the calcium reactor. I always had a big concern about my low ph and for the last two years it was never the root of any problems that I had with my tank.
- Location
- Hudson Yards
It is a bit maddening. It was only when it got down to 7.7 that I decided I had to do something. The scrubber with air from outside coming in seems to be able to keep it between 8.0-8.05 at night and around 8.15 during the day. As long as coralline algae will grow so my tuxedo urchin has enough food, I'm fine with those numbers.
On a related note, I cooked dinner tonight and the CO2 monitor's alarm went off. I had it set as high as it goes at 2000 ppm because it didn't want it to keep tripping. When I went to unplug the thing to get it to stop beeping, it was reading nearly 2200 ppm and the tank had dropped .05 points in 15 minutes. I knew burning natural gas to run the oven and stove would create CO2, but I didn't really expect it to be that much that fast. No wonder we have global warming! When you see those ads on TV for "clean safe natural gas" don't believe them. It may be clean compared to coal maybe, but not clean compared to solar or wind.
On a related note, I cooked dinner tonight and the CO2 monitor's alarm went off. I had it set as high as it goes at 2000 ppm because it didn't want it to keep tripping. When I went to unplug the thing to get it to stop beeping, it was reading nearly 2200 ppm and the tank had dropped .05 points in 15 minutes. I knew burning natural gas to run the oven and stove would create CO2, but I didn't really expect it to be that much that fast. No wonder we have global warming! When you see those ads on TV for "clean safe natural gas" don't believe them. It may be clean compared to coal maybe, but not clean compared to solar or wind.
my ph was always 7.8 7.9 never above so i run air to my skimmer from outside it didnt help ether but i got air pump that injects air with a good force in the skimmer and my ph jumped to 8.3 it never goes below 8.1 it was like a miracle for me
luckily i live by the ocean air im pumping is from my backyard so o2 is enough to drive out co2 from my tank also im using good skimmer and good air pump
luckily i live by the ocean air im pumping is from my backyard so o2 is enough to drive out co2 from my tank also im using good skimmer and good air pump
- Location
- Hudson Yards
Now that the air stone has been running a while I've noticed some interesting things. The tank seems to have an equilibrium between 8.05 (at night) and 8.15 (daytime). It stays within this range with the scrubber running no matter how much kalkwasser solution I dose. The only thing that might alter this is pumping more cubic feet of air per minute through the scrubber, and that would necessitate an even larger air pump.
I did a test just after lights out last night adding enough kalk to bring the pH up to 8.35. When I woke up this morning it was back down to 8.05. Saturday night it started at 8.15 at lights out and was at 8.05 Sunday morning. So, while the kalk is better than 2 part in stabilizing and maintaining pH in a high atmospheric CO2 environment, it will only do so much. As the scrubber's soda lime is depleted, the high and low pH points both slowly trend downward.
Something else I've confirmed is now that the nights are getting cooler, having the scrubber pull fresh air in from outside causes the tank to cool down too much. These last few nights I've had the pump drawing air from inside the apartment and, as long as the scrubber medium hasn't been exhausted, my results have been similar compared to outside air. The only thing that may end up being different is how quickly I go through soda lime.
Only time will tell whether or not all of this is sustainable long term.
I did a test just after lights out last night adding enough kalk to bring the pH up to 8.35. When I woke up this morning it was back down to 8.05. Saturday night it started at 8.15 at lights out and was at 8.05 Sunday morning. So, while the kalk is better than 2 part in stabilizing and maintaining pH in a high atmospheric CO2 environment, it will only do so much. As the scrubber's soda lime is depleted, the high and low pH points both slowly trend downward.
Something else I've confirmed is now that the nights are getting cooler, having the scrubber pull fresh air in from outside causes the tank to cool down too much. These last few nights I've had the pump drawing air from inside the apartment and, as long as the scrubber medium hasn't been exhausted, my results have been similar compared to outside air. The only thing that may end up being different is how quickly I go through soda lime.
Only time will tell whether or not all of this is sustainable long term.
I have just setup my "clean" scrubber.
I just got a canister (RO-DI) from BRS, with their "DIY media holder" in there. I put some 3/8" connectors on the canister.
The input is taking the air from outside a window (little space around the window AC unit lets me do that, especially since the cable passes there, but I added some silicon to avoid air from coming in/going out where it do not want it).
Then first stage is a pad, then carbon, another pad then soda lime, then the last pad.
After that, 30 meters of tubing to the skimmer. I have attached it to go around the doors etc, and it actually does not show much at all. But well the coaxial cable was already there so might as well use that.
It looks like the pH in my tank likes it. From 8.15 to 8.45 (my "cut the lights!" value), with all windows closed.
I just got a canister (RO-DI) from BRS, with their "DIY media holder" in there. I put some 3/8" connectors on the canister.
The input is taking the air from outside a window (little space around the window AC unit lets me do that, especially since the cable passes there, but I added some silicon to avoid air from coming in/going out where it do not want it).
Then first stage is a pad, then carbon, another pad then soda lime, then the last pad.
After that, 30 meters of tubing to the skimmer. I have attached it to go around the doors etc, and it actually does not show much at all. But well the coaxial cable was already there so might as well use that.
It looks like the pH in my tank likes it. From 8.15 to 8.45 (my "cut the lights!" value), with all windows closed.
- Location
- Medford, NY
Do you ever feel light headed after cooking?
- Location
- Hudson Yards
So, it's been a month since the last modification to my scrubber set up and here's what I've discovered...
Drawing air from the outside is only marginally better in my case due the the chronic idling of delivery trucks in the street directly below my apartment. Also it drops the temp of the tank too low at night.
For the past 4 weeks I've been drawing air from inside the apartment into the scrubber via the smaller of the two available SuperLuft pums on the market. It enters the tank via a large pond sized air stone in the sump.
The air stone makes a significant difference by better diffusing the scrubbed air into the water. I'm also dosing 1-1.5 gallons of kalkwasser solution per day. Generally I'm able to maintain the tank around 8.20-8.15 during the day and 8.05-8.10 at night.
Obviously the newer the soda lime the better my results. I find that I need to change the soda lime about once a week even before it fully turns purple. In my experience pH stability has been a better indicator of when to change the medium than when it changes color.
The scrubber alone won't do it for me and I find the kalk essential. When I've dosed 2 part instead the tank has been less stable. So it's a combination of the scrubber, air stone and kalk that makes this work for my particular situation. Remove any one of these variables and the tank becomes unstable.
A side bummer of elevated CO2 has been my amazing ability to grow nuisance algae. The kind nobody wants to eat. I'm working on growing more grape calurpa in the refugim to try and reduce the CO2 even further. I hate the stuff because once you put it in the sump it roots itself in every nook and cranny of the live rock. Personally I prefer chaeto, but it doesn't grow very well in my sump.
Drawing air from the outside is only marginally better in my case due the the chronic idling of delivery trucks in the street directly below my apartment. Also it drops the temp of the tank too low at night.
For the past 4 weeks I've been drawing air from inside the apartment into the scrubber via the smaller of the two available SuperLuft pums on the market. It enters the tank via a large pond sized air stone in the sump.
The air stone makes a significant difference by better diffusing the scrubbed air into the water. I'm also dosing 1-1.5 gallons of kalkwasser solution per day. Generally I'm able to maintain the tank around 8.20-8.15 during the day and 8.05-8.10 at night.
Obviously the newer the soda lime the better my results. I find that I need to change the soda lime about once a week even before it fully turns purple. In my experience pH stability has been a better indicator of when to change the medium than when it changes color.
The scrubber alone won't do it for me and I find the kalk essential. When I've dosed 2 part instead the tank has been less stable. So it's a combination of the scrubber, air stone and kalk that makes this work for my particular situation. Remove any one of these variables and the tank becomes unstable.
A side bummer of elevated CO2 has been my amazing ability to grow nuisance algae. The kind nobody wants to eat. I'm working on growing more grape calurpa in the refugim to try and reduce the CO2 even further. I hate the stuff because once you put it in the sump it roots itself in every nook and cranny of the live rock. Personally I prefer chaeto, but it doesn't grow very well in my sump.
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