Water Changes = Blood Letting

[beerfish]

Which trace elements?

The same can essentially be accomplished with wide spectrum supplements. Everything in synthetic salt can be delivered by other means.

Strontium, magnesium, iodine, iron, silicate, borate, sulfate... To name a few.

Salt mixes are designed to replace the appropriate amount. It's cheaper and easier to do a water change than trying to measure and dose elements like the ones listed above.

People have been known to keep tanks without water changes, but frankly, water changes are the easiest and most fool-proof way of keeping your tank in line. If you don't want to do them, don't, but be aware of what a water change does and how to compensate for them by other means.

 

[basiab]

Which trace elements?
The same can essentially be accomplished with wide spectrum supplements. Everything in synthetic salt can be delivered by other means.

Adding supplements without testing is sure disaster. You are adding supplements to an existing mix and have no idea if you are providing too much of an element or not. In the salt you get the normal proportions and you remove and add the same quantity of water thus taking out X gallons of messed up elements and replacing it with the same amount properly proportioned.

Another thing to consider. It is possible for us to use the same water over and over such as is done in space fights. But if you had the choice of using 'new' water or recycled which would you choose?

 

[MjG2000]

I've owned a 40 gallon breeder mixed reef tank for almost 4 years now.
I have never done a water change, my 40+ corals, fish, inverts, etc. are doing fine.
I do dose everything needed, and parameters are all in order.

 

[Waleedwale1]

I've owned a 40 gallon breeder mixed reef tank for almost 4 years now.
I have never done a water change, my 40+ corals, fish, inverts, etc. are doing fine.
I do dose everything needed, and parameters are all in order.

Where do your nitrates go?

 

[MikeC]

I've owned a 40 gallon breeder mixed reef tank for almost 4 years now.
I have never done a water change, my 40+ corals, fish, inverts, etc. are doing fine.
I do dose everything needed, and parameters are all in order.

Doing fine is a relative statement ?
Growing up I had a neighbor that left his dog out side all year and only fed it rice and muddy water. He also said he was fine.

If you put a cat in a room and lock it up for almost 4 years and only throw food and cat litter threw a window it should be fine:scratch:

Just saying

 

[vio]

IMOP Water changes are the single most effective /least expensive additive thing you can do for your tank.

+1 .Well said. :wink1:

 

[FlyPenFly]

Adding supplements without testing is sure disaster.

The exact same thing can be said of a water change. Synthetic salt batches are notoriously different even on the same brand.

How about a fresh new tank with 100% new water. Shouldn't that have dangerous amounts of trace elements. It doesn't. Same thing with water changes, you're not really adding in that much more trace elements. Salt companies don't make 2 sets of salts for water changes and new tanks.

Now, I don't recommend someone put in an entire bottle of Reef Plus or Reef trace into a nano tank but if you follow the recommended dosage, it's really not any different than doing a water change in terms replacing trace elements except you're restoring closer to what a new tank has in trace.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Where do your nitrates go?

Bacteria converts nitrates into escaping gas efficiently in a mature well kept tank.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Adding supplements without testing is sure disaster. You are adding supplements to an existing mix and have no idea if you are providing too much of an element or not. In the salt you get the normal proportions and you remove and add the same quantity of water thus taking out X gallons of messed up elements and replacing it with the same amount properly proportioned.

Another thing to consider. It is possible for us to use the same water over and over such as is done in space fights. But if you had the choice of using 'new' water or recycled which would you choose?

No such thing as new water, all water is recycled.

Actually, adding supplements and water changes are totally arbitrary additions and subtractions of elements.

 

[basiab]

I've owned a 40 gallon breeder mixed reef tank for almost 4 years now.
I have never done a water change, my 40+ corals, fish, inverts, etc. are doing fine.
I do dose everything needed, and parameters are all in order.

There is the key. You dose what is needed. That means you test and add accordingly and that is fine. He wants to simply add a spectrum of elements.

 

[basiab]

Actually, adding supplements and water changes are totally arbitrary additions and subtractions of elements.[/QUOTE]

No it is not the same. Adding supplements removes nothing. Water changes removes a specific volume of water with whatever the elements are there and then it is replaced with the proper proportion (hopefully) of elements. So if you have a 50 gallon tank and replace 5 gallons you have improved your elements by 10%. Adding supplements without testing means you may have made things worse because you may add something that was already at the proper level.
And yes, water changes are not an exact science, and testing is the only way to really do it right. But for us lazy people the best bet is water changes.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Actually you have no idea if you improved or degraded your elements at all because you're not testing. There's a large myriad of elements that we have no idea are beneficial in what concentrations to which types of coral other than how we can try to sort of replicate some bodies of seawater (which by the way can vary greatly between relatively close reefs).

We find that in aquariums, higher alkalinity (around 10dkh) produces relatively higher growth rates and actually improves the hardiness of some stony coral. Here's an example that not replicating NSW at 7dkh is pretty beneficial in our aquariums.

So I guess what I'm ranting about is that we make these big sweeping assumptions about our current best practices based on not much and accept it as fact. In truth, you're not testing all your new sea water or old, you have no idea if you have the right concentration of the right elements for your stocking, you're just doing it because that's what everyone says. Like bloodletting. Just like I am.

 

[lnevo]

Don't forget that dosing leaves a lot of residual ions and elements (potassium, sulfates, etc) and also increases salinity over time and makes water changes even more.

Can it be skipped sure, but even Paul B who doesn't believe in water changes still does so a few times a year.

The issue with the statement "I dose everything I need" doesn't account for things we can't test for or things that that we don't know what corals use.

If we change the term water change to simulating the tidal current it doesn't sound as bad as the bloodletting metaphor. It's also why I'm a fan of continuous water change. In a future build I will have the proper plumbing to set this up to do changes daily if not more.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I think skimming actually will solve your ionic imbalance and excess salinity problem especially if you skim on the wetter side it might do it's job too well and you'll have to double check your salinity is still high enough.

 

[lnevo]

I don't care how wet you skim I don't think you're exporting enough to meet a 20% per month water volume that is normally recommended.

For salinity it may be enough, but I'm not qualified enough to speak on how wet skimming/top off would affect any ionic imbalances.

I add approx an extra quart of water after water changes to account for the salinity change from skimming.

 

[vio]

"Inevo" i was thinking about that " It's also why I'm a fan of continuous water change. In a future build I will have the proper plumbing to set this up to do changes daily if not more." C/P from u, i will do one day, i need more room, i will make the water change on AUTO mode, i gonna use one tank, just to mix salt (i already play w/Muriatic Acid, just to lower the Alk. i want) then use lots of flow (of course, NO sand) than use one extra overflow box to export the water out. Lots of ppl forget something, corals leave in more than 18",24",30" deep water column,lots of water move around, how many times u see diving in 18" deep water ? :spin:

 

[beerfish]

If you don't want to do water changes, don't.

You're trying to justify not performing a practice that has been well studied, and proven to be beneficial to a vast majority of aquariums.

The bottom line is, bloodletting was not beneficial and was proven so. Water changes are beneficial, and have been proven so.

If you want to go get lab grade testing equipment for all of the trace elements that may be found in saltwater, perform a controlled experiment over a long period of time, and report back with your results then this could be a worthwhile thread. Otherwise, you might as well be arguing that the world is flat.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Sheeesh, have a beer.