Give proper advice or just shut up?

[andylee]

Hi,
I am by no means an expert in reefing, but I've been doing it for a while and have always read as much as I can. I am at least moderately concerned about the welfare of my livestock as well as the condition of reefs in the wild.

So the question is: should I (or we) tell those who are obviously unprepared the harsh facts (ie: their fish/anemones/corals are doomed and their tank is doomed to failure) or just let them keep messing around and killing everything. People who buy salt, a tank, and a pair of "nemos" at the same time or those who put anemones into uncycled tanks with a strip light come to mind.

I know that people come to this site for help. I hate to sound professorial or condescending, but I'd like them to learn to do the right thing. After I post a mean-sounding answer, I feel bad.

Advice?

Andy

 

[House of Laughter]

Andy,

Quiet sarcasm has always worked for me when moderating the board - I also use he appropriate emoticons when trying to show the recipient that I am kidding, but not kidding - if you know what I m saying.

MR, as a rule, does not typically "flame" members about thier choices like other reef boards, but they will chime in one by one to make sure new members understand why and how they are doing things "right" and "wrong" typically providing other information in support of thier position.

As vendors, however, we are required to maintain a certain ethical standards - and more often than not, I am saying no to a member wanting to make a purchase with recommendations of another approach or to just plain NOT do what they were asking to do i.e add fish, put SPS into a 3 month old tank etc.

So, if you're looking to help newer members understand the nuances of what it takes to develop a successful reef, I suggest you reed the reef for beginners threads and information available there - feel free to add any content where you want -

Hope that helps/answers it for you.

House

 

[pmui]

i back your view 100%. I've actually when you to person when they were looking to purchase the 2gal tank and a box of salt and asked if they were planning to start a saltwater tank. I would tell them to do some research before jumping into purchasing the "tank of doom".
A lot of people see the brightly color fish and corals in the store and say they want without thinking of the put come.

 

[digitalreefer]

I think it's all in the way you tell someone... if you want to say to someone

"Don't keep an anemone in there, it's going to die stupid"

you can instead say

"You'll probably want to do some research on the anemone, they generally require bright light, so you should make sure your tank has the apporpriate lighting for the anemone you want to keep"

They may still get a little upset, but it's better than them killing everything and leaving the hobby in frustration.

 

[jackson6745]

Andy, just tell it like it is. No need to sugar coat your replies. It's only corals + fish, nothing personal. Only problems I see is when someone is very closed minded and believes their way is the only way. I would never tell a guy running only a refugium that his tank can't have nice acros, but I will tell him that if he has a big skimmer it will be much easier to get nice colors and keep nusciance to a minimum. The best thing you can do is give advice based on experience and not some regurgitated scientific mumbo jumbo that is inconclusive.

 

[andylee]

Digitalreefer,
How about the person that you say that to and in their next post the anemone is shrinking away and the water smells and should they get another one? The can I call them stupid?

 

[digitalreefer]

Stupid may be harsh... I told you so may be more appropriate! lol

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

The question should really be Do you really want help and opinions of more experienced than you are, or do you want us to validate you and tell you it's ok to put that anemone and those clowns wether your sister tells you it's ok.

My problem being, Do you really want help? If you throw those nemos into a 2 day cycled tank then no, if you don't then the answer is yes.

If you ask a thousand questions and they get answered not to your liking and you still do what you were going to do in the first place well then you didn't want real help you wanted validation.

People don't like to be told no, I have learned this in my career ( I get paid to tell people no ) and in parenthood. Immature people look through all the No's to find that one yes that validates them then they go ahead when they had 49 No's and 1 yes and justify themselves with that 1 yes and ignore the 49 no's.

So my question to everyone that asks a question "DO YOU REALLY WANT HELP?"



Keep in mind that by far I am no expert in this hobby either however I did join here to learn and everyday I learn more and more from the experts here. We have successful tanks for a reason, we listen to the answers and do it, not look for the 1 yes and validate ourselves.

 

[andylee]

I agree. One danger of the internet is that everyone becomes an expert. Once something is in "print," it becomes "official."

I certainly get the feeling that some people are looking to find someone to tell them that they kept a shark in a 10 gallon tank.

Anyway, I guess that's my rant for the day!

Andy

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Dude If you read the Reef Graffitti yesterday it was my rant too. I also agree that somepeople here shouldn't give advice to people because the advice the give is either inacurate or just plain wrong, but It is a free country and a free site.

 

[Tonyscoots84]

i think we can all officially say we been there with the questions and looking for that yes answer.. but when you come to realize this hobby means alot to you, and that you are dealing with living creatures you mature as a reefer and start understanding the trueness of keeping certain select livestocks and start listening to the expertz persay... eventually they will mature (hopefully not after everything dies on em)

the way i look at it is if someone does what is mentioned above in this thread all i can say is that i tried to help, it is up to the person to take wat i say and understand it, but its up to the person asking the question... alot of people who reef are also young (immaturity) which ive been seeing alot of know a days so we gotta try our best to help when they have questions... if they dont want to listen O WELL and move on to the next one...

If a person needs help, mean it and dont oversee what we say cause it gets annoying thats why alot of people on here tend not to post anymore because these people asking for help just ignore the truth and are only looking for what they want to see... i say post what you gotta say and if they listen then great... u did the community good... :grouphug:

 

[wxl14]

I believe the problem is that most people dont find this website till they have a problem. An the advice they got was from a LFS in the first place. I know I had problems because I got all my advice from LFS. It was then that I started looking for better advice. That is when I hit the websites. I found Manhatten Reefs as a great source of information. The biggest thing is that the people are here. If they are trying to kill there fish I doubt they would even bother coming here in the first place. I cant imagine anyone on this site was a pro at this hobby when they first started. Everyone has made big mistakes. At least they are here and asking questions. Whether they are looking for validation or not most people always answer them honestly and it may help others.

 

[cali_reef]

I say just shut up at some point... Its a hobby for me, I'll try to help, but to a point and they have to be willing to accept the help given.

Otherwise, they waste their money -> stuff dies -> they feel reefing no longer fun -> Ink moves in to put dibs on their stuff -> we buy the stuff from Ink here . Its all good.

 

[marrone]

I think it's very important if you see someone doing some thing that may not be right, whether it's buying a fish, coral, equipment or even a setup, to let them know. To many people keep buying the same fish, coral or invert only to see it die. They then go out and just buy another one only to have the same thing happen again. It's very important to let the people know why some thing isn't going to work and what they need to do, or shouldn't do, to make it work. In some case it may never work and is best to tell the person that and not for them to get that fish/coral/invert or piece of equipment.

It's important to try and put as much info into people hands before they buy something. Giving them info and having them do search on the internet will only help in the long run. To many people leave the hobby over things not working and if you can give some one even a little help that may help keep them around, even if that help can seem strong at times. Some people may not like it or may not listen to you but you can only do so much. In cases like that all you can do is wait for the person to fail and then see if they want your help.

 

[Hotwheels]

Not to get off the topic, but I believe no question to be a stupid one. We were all novice once or are novice today.
I sometimes read the different threads with replying and find answers to questions I too have. I remember reading a thread about common courtesies somewhere in the rules thread.

If you ask a question you may not get the response your looking for, but it will more likely be an honest one.

Even when we teach we learn.

 

[ShaunW]

Believe it or not, MANHATTANREEFS has RULES!

I suggest every member reads them, since telling someone they are stupid directly and being downright mean in ones response is a sure fire way to not play here anymore.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum...-manhattan-reefs-official-welcome-thread.html

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/general-discussion/9092-mr-site-rules.html

 

[ShaunW]

So the question is: should I (or we) tell those who are obviously unprepared the harsh facts (ie: their fish/anemones/corals are doomed and their tank is doomed to failure) or just let them keep messing around and killing everything. People who buy salt, a tank, and a pair of "nemos" at the same time or those who put anemones into uncycled tanks with a strip light come to mind.

So my philosophical opinion is: I am always careful to criticize others. Every species in our tank's are genetically dead. We have taken them from their natural habitat and subjected them to the death pit we call an aquarium. Their live span is limited, food supply minimal and growth potential restricted. We provide no food for offspring for the most part.

Except for a very few examples, the sexual exchange of genes are prevented due to the fact that we don't have many of the same species interacting. Coral spawning for example, while it can happen, it doesn't lead to new offsprings. All our propagation is asexual, thus not genetically diverse, and therefore evolutionary dead. So for every coral put in our tanks, one less individual genome is removed from nature.

So, I accept my selfish nature (sometimes I feel extremely guilty looking at my tank) and try to at least provide the best environment for the living creatures I try to provide a home for.

 

[andylee]

I don't mind questions at all. I think it's responsible for people to ask questions when they're not sure. I think what I mind is when no research is done and the things are already in the tank or when questions are answered but the answers that require more work (ie get a test kit, get proper lighting, get a skimmer) are studiously ignored.

 

[ShaunW]

I don't mind questions at all. I think it's responsible for people to ask questions when they're not sure. I think what I mind is when no research is done and the things are already in the tank or when questions are answered but the answers that require more work (ie get a test kit, get proper lighting, get a skimmer) are studiously ignored.

Agreed! We all have a responsibility to at least try and provide a proper home for our inhabitants.