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Paul B

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I have theories about just about everything and unfortunately, most of them are probably to radical, simple, inane, old school, or complicated for many people to understand, comprehend, agree with or even bother to read, so if you are one of "Those" people, don't read any further, just go and watch TV, I think there is a re run of the Opera show where she gives away Cadillac's to homeless cats.
Now I am far from the God of fish tanks, corals (SPS, LPS, leathers, suede's, velour's or velvet)
I am however the God of UG filters and maybe bald heads which I have always aspired to be famous for. In my many years of reading, diving and learning I have noticed a few things. Much, or most of what we do or want to do with regard to this hobby is either wrong, almost wrong or even dangerous, but what we can all agree on is that it is expensive. I will get to that as I feel it is a very cheap hobby. I just may be rich and this money is just a drop in the bucket or else I am poor, or to cheap to spend anything so I can feed my family. The truth is that I am neither, I am like most of us, in the middle, in the "fusion zone" as I like to refer to it as. I would also like to say imperically that I do not have the nicest tank on here, probably far from it, but it ain't to bad either
I am getting old (er) and in a few years I am sure I will start forgetting many of the things I learned through trial and error, the things I picked up in the 50s 60s and 70s that is all but forgotten about now as parchment paper degrades over time. I am fortunately still sharp as a tack, OK maybe a slightly duller tack, but a tack none the less, OK a finishing nail, not one of those aluminum Home Depot finishing nails, a good steel one from an American hardware store, a store that was started in the 40s after the big one.
Much of the things I do to my tank I can not print as I am sure I would be put away. Things like using Clorox in NSW to eliminate red tide or heating the water to kill paracites without affecting the parameters. Curing PopEye in a few seconds with a hypodermic needle or cleaning a fish of ich, flukes or flounders in a day. I won't even mention putting in copper pennies before they invented liquid copper. These are things I have posted in the past with regret because of the flood of hate mail. OK, maybe not a flood, one or two E mails, but to me that is a deluge. As I said in the beginning, some of you should be watching Opera and not reading this, I think she is just about to give away one of those cadillac's.
I mentioned a few times that I have no need for a quarantine, or hospital tank, Whoooa, I was bombarded after that. The Idea that I let all my fish become sick, infected with all sorts of things such as crypocaryn, velvet, black ich, jaundice, hemorrhoids or psorisis. I usually say that if you don't have my tank, maybe you should quarantine. But of course I can't leave that alone although I do try. I think that in "some" instances, paracites are good. OK I said it. Now will you please stop reading as I am only wrighting this now because I am bored.
It seems to me, and I also posted this numerous times, that so many people, maybe even the majority of people have problems with things like diseases (or those sweat stains in your armpits) You can use things like Priazo, copper, KicK Ick, (Oh God) or any number of things. I myself am 65 years old and the only thing I take is fish oil. I also give it to my fish but that is not what this is about. Ok, it is a little about that, but only a little. Fish in the sea probably never get sick. Why is that? No it is not that they have free access to Priazo from Obamacare. They also don't get eaten right away if they get a few paracites. They don't get sick because of their immune system. Their immune system works better than ours does. It makes sence as they have been around longer than us and their immune system has to work in the water. The water that they live in contains everything that ever was, including dinosaur poop, Wash water from Columbus underware, and Amelia Airheart. No, Literally, Amelia Airheart. Our piddly immune system only has to protect us from airborn stuff like excess gas from those chili houses in Texas and maybe some simple viruses. Diseases can get around much easier in water than in air so a fish immune system has evolved for that task. In the sea, fish eat live, "whole" food such as fry, fish eggs, shrimp, seaweed or Happy Meals. Most fish don't spit out the guts, heads, scales, fish hooks or bones. In many tanks they have to do with pellets, flakes dried nori, cardboard, dried ants or some frozen concoction. (in the 50s tropical fish food was dried ants, no, really) Many of the frozen foods are very good but they are not live food which is vastly different. Flakes and pellets have a purpose, I use them to feed my worms, but it is live, or at least frozen "whole" food (with the guts) that will keep a fishes immune system up to where it can fight off things including paracites and sea gulls. You can tell if this is working if the fish is spawning or making spawning attempts to spawn as only fish in excellent health will spawn. I personally have never seen a fish that was spawning afflicted with any disease but some people tell me that is not true. I have a word I like to call those people, and that word is "wrong". OK maybe one fish got sick while it was spawning, he don't count. But anyway, this post was not supposed to be about immune systems because I have posted that to death and if you ever had a fish get sick with any disease, it is because it's immune system did not protect it and unfortunately, that is our fault, not the fish, the dealer or the old lady on the corner who collects tin cans and cats.
Thats enough about food and immune systems. As I said, I am posting this because I know, in time I will forget, and then, even if no one else reads this (and I am quite certain only me and the night watchman at the OTB office will see it) I may again come across it in 10 or 15 years in my nursing home, and in my stupor, I may remember some of it and hopefully someone will at least get me a goldfish to occupy my time. A goldfish and maybe a picture of a Supermodel.
I see people use all sorts of chemicals to control things that our bacteria are supposed to do for us for free. Things like Rowaphos, Rowanda, Rotweilder or whatever it is called. I am not sure why you would need it but I would imagine if you need those silly Bio-pellets in a reactor you would also need that. I never used any of it so I am sure I am doing something wrong. I guess my bacteria don't mind doing what they are paid to do. Of course i also collect bacteria as I feel that if you don't do that (and I realize one or two people don't live near the sea) the only bacteria in your tank is that stuff in your dealer's tank and all he has is the stuff from his wholesaler and all he has is the stuff in the shipping water that is mixed with bilge water from some canoe that also has some of columbus wash water and possably ear wax from Jimmy Hoffa. I hear all the time that people get the horrors because their nitrate measured 12 or 15. I don't think my nitrate was ever that low, not that I have a test kit but I do get it tested just so I can write these rediculous threads. My nitrate is now about 40, it could be 50 but even if it was 680, I really don't care because if it was to high, the corals would let me know right away. I feel the same about phosphate, anthrax and calcium. but I do add calcium in the form of driveway ice melter at a cost of about $10.00 a year so I don't want to waste it. I also use baking soda for alk, I think that costs about 99cents if I get it on sale and once a year or so I add some Epsom Salts after I soak my feet in it. Maybe that also adds beneficial bacteria, I can't be sure. (that expensive calcium you buy is driveway ice melter and baking soda)
Then we have nusience algae. It grows on every healthy reef and it is not a nusience there, but in our tanks it sometimes is. I don't want it growing on my corals although in the past my tank has looked like a produce stand. I still have a slight amount but just as much as I want. The first thing people ask when they hear about an algae problem is "what are your parameters?" Then they all say "change the water" Does that ever work? No, but people still change massive amounts of water every day in the hope of eliminating a natural substance that has nothing to do with changing water but what do I know? Stores have to make money also so changing water is good. It won't do anything for algae growth except maybe make it grow faster but we keep doing it for lack of a better "cure". If you take RO/DI water and put it in the sun, and an ant dies in it from exhaustion after doing the macarana, it will grow algae. Try it. New tanks with all brand new water grow the most algae, I wonder why? Maybe algae can grow with just a tiny smidgeon of nutrients, but wait a minute, there is also algae in the tissues in the coral so if we eliminate all the nutrients (like that was even possable) we may also kill the corals. OMG, it is an unfixable connundrum, like a paradox. I love paradoxes. I really don't know why algae sometimes grows and sometimes it doesn't but you know something? No one else knows either. We think we know, like we know all about paracites, Obamacare and global warming, but we don't. Some day we will know everything and I hope that day never comes but for now we don't. I bet the Neanderthals thought they knew everything until they were taken over by Liberals. If you have a tank long enough you will see cycles of all sorts of different, colorful and annoying algae's. Most tanks don't have a long enough lifespan to notice these things but I do. Every few years my tank would get an outbreak of something even if I didn't change anything. I think the next outbreak may be Brocclirabe, onions or tent catterpillars. I stopped those cycles a few years ago by installing an algae trough but an algae filter would do the same thing. Now I really don't care what causes nusience algae as it will only grow where I want it to grow and I realize I can't completely stop it as that would be unhealthy. After all it grows everywhere and if it didn't what are all those urchins, slugs, snails, rabbitfish, chitens, sea hares and tangs eating?
If we really knew what caused algae, ich or cyano don't you think we would have eliminated it 43 years ago when the salt water hobby started? I think it was on a Tuesday about 1:00-1:30 in the afternoon. I mean, Really! But alas. We will still continue to change massive amounts of water, increase circulation, cultivate a clean up crew, buy newer light bulbs, vacuum our substraits, add magnesium and look at pictures of Supermodels, but we will also still have hair algae, cyano and ich. I can not eliminate any of those things but I have found a natural way to allow them to live side by side in my tank, with my healthy, spawning fish and corals while at the same time changing a modest amount of water and not adding one cent of manufactured chemicals "and" having fish living happily for their natural lifespan that is sometimes older than Myley Cyrus. Actually all of my fish are older than her but that isn't saying much.
I said before that paracites "may" be healthy for our fish. Of course the fish won't think so, so don't ask them. But I remember after I got drafted and was going to Viet Nam, they inoculated me with everything you could imagine. 6 shots at a time in each arm. Plague, jungle fever, malaria, diptheria, cholera, parot fever, jaundice and Play Doh. I didn't get any of those things. Those vaccines were made out of weak or dead disease organisms. We can't get weak or dead paracites but live healthy paracites work even better. Yes, they may kill our fish, but if they don't, our fish will become immune from those paracites. Why, you ask. I have no freekin Idea. What do I look like? A researcher? No, i am an electrician but a very good one. I also have been keeping fish for 60 years so if you find someone who has been keeping fish longer than that, don't ask him anything as he is probably senile and will just snot and drool on you. I do remember that the Vietnamese people didn't get malaria, but I had to take a pill every day. When I got home my wife and I went to mexico. Big mistake. I never get sick but in Mexico, both me and her ended up in the hospital. Do you who who else was in that hospital with Montizuma"s revenge? Americans thats who, not Mexicans because their immune system was used to paracites in the water. That is why i don't have to have a quarantine tank. I know, all 4 of the people reading this are saying that my tank is a time bomb and will crash any time now. Maybe it will, but it has had one heck of a run.
I run a reverse UG filter, virtually unknown by anyone under 57 years old. People think it is old school. Well it is not. Regular UG filters are old school but not reverse UG filters. DSBs are much older (I think). Speaking of old school, the school I went to was heated by coal. There was this old guy (he was probably 30) who used to shovel coal to heat the school. And when the teacher would send us to empty the waste paper basket, we would go down to the basement and give it to that guy who would throw it into the furnace. But I digress.
If I have any more ideas, I will post them. But in the meantime, if you have any colorful, connotations, cures, quatations or comments, I would be extreamly happy to hear them.
I just came back from my boat and had a few Harvey Wallbangers and Long Island Ice teas so I will most likely forget what I wrote in a few minutes. But of course, that could be senility.
 

Mark2480

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I have to admit I like reading you're post. I have kept many tanks over the last 30 years, and looking over the Polaroid pics of my old school tanks they looked pretty damn good back then, with a lot less problems then some recent ones I have had with all the new gadgets. I'm back to my old ways now and my tanks have never looked better. Anyways I guess I'll keep reading along with the OTB night watchman lol.
 

Paul B

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Here are some sights at the tide pool where I collect and just hang out. You kind of need a boat to get here and there is never anyone here. I have been going here for most of my life and I anchor just off here every weekend to party which is where we were an hour ago.
Mud snails I could collect by the millions

I love to put rocks covered in barnacles in my tank as I feel they look so natural. I can also collect these all day.

These invasive Japanese shore crabs used to be all over the place with a few under virtually every rock but not to many this year which is a good thing.

 

Dan_P

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WOW Paul_B, one might say you have Montezuma's revenge of the neocortex :)

Your thoughts about parasites, bacteria, fish immune systems, and learning to avoid fads in reef keeping are interesting. I don't understand all the allusions to your conjectures and cures, having only just joined the forum this year. Even so, i think they make very interesting reading.

Our aquariums are crude attempts to mimic natural environments of which we are pitifully ignorant. I suspect that our aquariums can be viewed as chaotic systems, no two are ever alike once we add salt to water (butterfly effect) but they are, broadly speaking, "alike". I further suspect that they evolve or cycle as you say during their entire existence. If this characterization is correct, this makes our tanks less likely to respond to fixes the same way. As a result, solutions to tank problems will work in all of our tanks some percent of the time. This in turn gives the illusion that there "right" ideas (lucky guesses) and "wrong" ideas (good solutions applied at the wrong time or for the wrong reason). There is a business based on suggesting solutions to very complex problems. It is called consulting and you probably know how badly they get beat up.

I try to remain open minded about renegade ideas and like to hear about them. That is why I enjoy this forum. Keep up the good work!
 

Paul B

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Dan, my approach to reef keeping are entirely my own ideas as I started this before it was a hobby and learned by trial and mostly error with no input from anyone as there was no one. My allusions, conjectures and cures just appear in my pneumatic, simplistic, semi senile, mind which is an other allusion or conjecture. (I just threw in Pneumatic) I feel way to much ink is spent on cures as our fish should almost never get sick. Mine almost never do. By almost I mean decades not even months or years. I am very confident that if you can just keep fish in breeding condition, they will not get ich or anything else. I did not make this up yesterday, it came from many years of doing this and almost none of it is from second hand experience as that is hearsay. If fish can live in my tank for over 20 years without ever getting sick they should be able to live in anyone's tank. Not just one or two fish, but all my fish and that is without a quarantine or hospital tank. I do occasionally lose fish, but never to disease. It is always from jumping out or being bullied because I stupidly put in two males or two fish of different species just don't get along and one cowers in a corner until it starves. I have two banana fish now and one bullies the other. So much so that one is twice the size of the other. Keeping fish in breeding condition is extremely simple and all it requires is feeding live food such as worms almost every day supplemented with other whole foods like clams.
Shrimp, squid, fish fillets, and scallops are not good foods as with those foods we are only feeding tentacles or muscles where there is only protein. Fish need the guts and oils that are missing from those foods. A perfect food for our fish is fresh "whole" saltwater fish, bones, guts, heads, scales and all. that is what they eat in the sea. Freeze dried or flakes or pellets won't do it, not even close. If your fish are not spawning or making spawning gestures they are not very healthy at all, on the verge of dying even.
This hobby is not complicated at all, people just seem to not want to go the extra step to keep these things healthy so they have to quarantine, and stock up on medications. :dead1:

References:
Me
 

Dan_P

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I admire your skills of animal husbandry! Providing conditions for fish to reach breeding conditions clearly indicates that you have developed wisdom in the subject matter. The notion of providing animals what they eat in the wild as a practice to good health makes sense to me, but I suspect there is "something" more to your success than feeding. Unfortunately, you have not posted enough since I joined for your wisdom to rub off on me.

I suppose it is possible that if you have been running an aquarium for many years (based on your posts I assume you started shortly after fish evolved), you might have forgotten start up angst and the "old school" ways of dealing with them. If not, it would be cool to hear about your approaches. Our over mechanized, reactor dominated, digitally enhanced and prepared food addicted hobby could benefit from your wisdom.

Dan
 

Paul B

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So I took the "Ladies" out for the moonlight cruise last night then dropped them off at my marina where they had dinner. It was Lobster night. I sat at the bar and ordered a hamburger. I wanted the Ahi Tuna burger but that was $22.00 so I went with the $18.00 hamburger. Yeah, I know. So the guy brings out this huge burger and a few feet to the right of me on the bar is a red squeeze bottle of "ketchup", so I grab it and squirt it all over my burger.


The "ketchup" is fluorescent green. So I say to the bartender, "Is this some new kind of ketchup?".


He says NO, THATS SOAP. I said, "Soap?" What kind of soap? He said he does the glasses with it. So I said "So you keep dish soap in a red squeeze ketchup bottle that virtually every diner in the United Stated keeps ketchup in, and you leave it on the bar where probably half the people coming in and sitting at the bar are eating hamburgers".


So I got a new hamburger sans the soap.





Anyway, the "girls" had a great time.


Getting back to fish, I am amazed that almost no one autopsies their fish after they die.


I remember once on the news they asked this doctor, how many autopsies he performed on dead people? He said "all the autopsies I perform are on dead people".





OK getting back to fish, I promise. If they find a dead person, and here in New York and especially in Manhattan they find a lot of dead bodies, they just don't look at them and say "Oh well, he has no spots so we don't know why he died?"


They don't do that because there is very little you can tell from looking at someone as to how they died. Of course if they have to pry pieces of him from in between the subway car wheels that would be an indication as the cause of death, but most of the time, they find someone laying there with a nice suit on, decent hair cut, healthy looking, but dead. That calls for an autopsy. Fish autopsies are simple and if you screw it up, most of the time the family won't complain. And, different from people, you don't have to put the dead fish body back together again to make it presentable. You can fed it to your cat so it is like recycling.


If you find a dead fish and it is not yet eaten up, just take a razor knife and cut the thing open starting at the bottom, the soft parts. Lay out the parts and look at them while trying not to squash anything as fish parts are rather delicate. You should find the swim bladder, stomach, liver and most importantly the gills. Get yourself a jeweler's loupe of at least a magnifying glass and if the fish just died you may see parasites in it's gills. Usually that is accompanied by tears in the delicate gill tissues that should look like feathers. You may also find blood in the muscles near the tail. I find that a lot in skinny fish such as copperbands or tangs and I think it comes from collection because to me I think those very sharp ribs sometimes puncture blood vessels. If you see a dark area on the side of a thin fish, that is usually internal bleeding and the fish rarely, if ever recover and Obamacare won't save them. People tell me that autopsying fish is to complicated for the average hobbiest to perform. Yes, if you are a Sissy you won't do this. But I eat fish almost every day and virtually every one of them suffocated on the deck of a ship and by me eating them or autopsying them didn't make their life any easier or harder. But if I find out why it died, I can maybe better be able to prevent it in the future. "Or" I could just flush the thing and chalk it up to the Moon God and buy another fish.





You can see an area on this copperband where it is just starting to show. You have to look at these fish closely but don't put your head so close to your monitor that you get grease on the screen. Below the black dot near his upper rear you can see a slighter darker area that may just look like some raised scales. That is how it starts, then it becomes darker and sometimes protrudes a little. This is very common on thin, newly collected fish.


Don't buy fish with this condition as even though it looks benign, it is caused by internal bleeding as this fish died and I autopsied it. I have seen this many times.


Those fish should have no marks or raised scales especially along the ribs.
These are 2 different fish with the same problem. Look closely





 
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Dan_P

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Posting photos of the autopsy would be a way to get more aquarists up to speed on the appearance of good v bad internal organs. It would also be a way to get a second opinion.

A couple different size Exacto knives would be easy to obtain surgical blades.

Do post-Baby Boomers do much dissecting in class?
 

Dan_P

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Paul, in your pursuit of reef keeping wisdom, have you run across anyone doing DNA sampling of aquarium water to determine the bacteria and viral species inhabitants? I know they have started studying ocean water this way.

I ask because one of your ideas is that bacteria, beyond the ones involved in the nitrogen cycle, are important for aquarium health, one of the reasons for you using natural sea water. I would add that viruses are equally important.
 

Paul B

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Do post-Baby Boomers do much dissecting in class?

I have a book of aquarium diseases that shows what internal organs are supposed to look like and how to determine if they are healthy.

have you run across anyone doing DNA sampling of aquarium water to determine the bacteria and viral species inhabitants?

No, I have not run across that as I am sure it would be expensive and there are no large organizations interested in what is known as Ornamental tropical fish
 

Paul B

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I just came back from Aquarium Village, my favorite store (your welcome Andy) and got a couple of pipefish because I just love pipefish. They started eating new born brine shrimp in their shipping bag as pipefish normally do. I was in the store just as they got a shipment because that is when I like to pick my fish and am always amazed at the number of fish that come in that I am sure almost no one knows how to take care of. Not just fish, but nudibranchs also. I must admit that years ago I also bought things like nudibranches and tried to feed them all sorts of things like hamburger helper, happy meals, Kentucky fried Chicken etc. and I always figured I was going to be able to keep these things because I was so smart and innovative. Well I am not as smart or innovative as I thought I was or I would still have some of those colorful nudibranchs. Each one of those suckers eat a specific, live food and none of them are Happy Meals. Nudibranch's are all carnivores. Slugs, which look the same, almost are a different animal, sort of like the difference between Paris Hilton and Angelina Jolie, they are both people but worlds different. Slugs are vegetarians. That makes they somewhat easier to kep than nudi's but some of them only eat a specific green, like bryopsis which only lettuce slugs (elysia crispata) "eat". And they don't even eat it, they suck out the juices kind of like Bella Lagossi as Count Dracula. And to make it even more confusing, lettuce slugs only suck out the juice of bryopsis when they are young, then they live on light. Weird creatures. I wish I could live on light as my bald head would make a great solar panel.
Nudibranch's all have external gills that look like feathers, maybe they are made of feathers who am Ito judge? :snail:
I wrote an article about lettuce slugs in my youth. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I forget.. http://www.seaslugforum.net/find/11846
 
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paul I love reading your threads cause besides You make me laugh there is always the learning experience, you are a pioneer of this hobby and nobody will ever take it away from you cause you have done the natural way.
 

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