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Old 09-10-2014, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson6745 View Post
You will not get sound science from NMFS. I just hope they don't blame it on "climate change"

Randy if your experts could post on the matter I would be eager to read what they say. I don't have a full understanding of what's exactly happing, but I have been dealing with regulation from the NMFS for many years at my job. They have a lot of power, and IMO agendas that always follow some kind of $$$. My opinion is obviously bias so I choose not to post much on this thread (or others), but I am reading every post about the matter on all the reef boards that I frequent.
I worry you won't like what we have to say based on your putting 'climate change' in quotes (I put it in half quotes because we need to define it before we can actually talk about it).
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Old 09-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rookie07 View Post
Self regulation only does the bare minimum to prevent actual regulation, self regulation is BS and only done to appease someone or something.... With that said, I'm not sure we're a hobby worth saving!
+1 on self regulations.

The short 6 years I've been in the hobby, methods and equipment has come and gone. New methods to the hobby has been introduced, and some debunked. However, there is one constant. The increased amount of corals bought in by retailers/vendors. It was pretty prestigious for a vendor to bring in 4-5 boxes/week of corals in 2005, up to 30 boxes/week today -- this observed within my visibility.

One could say the hobby has expanded thus creating a much greater demand. Possible. Personally, I think there was a breakdown in the supply chain. The crash of 2008 put many onto the curb. The hobby took a pretty big punch in the gut, wholesalers started to stockpile inventory with no outlet; forcing their hand to unload to casual hobbyists on the cheap. This created a whole new monster, and it gets hungry - fast! People sat home collecting unemployment, staring at their tanks. Off into their peripheral vision past the reflection from their MH lights, dollar signs started bouncing around.

I remember SDC and several big suppliers requiring an ample amount of documentation supporting one's business before they'll deal. This included EINs, some form of incorporation, pictures of your brick and mortar storefront, $500,000 cashflow (I made up the last one, I think that was Dunkin Donuts' requirement). Today, I'm not sure if one needs to supply even their SSN#. Armed with a Paypal account anyone can be the next coral entrepreneur.

Fix the supply chain, and it'll curb some of the demand. However, the cat is out of that bag. Unless these wholesalers/transhippers are hippie tree huggers that'll put Mother Nature in the forefront, the income column of their spreadsheets is just to hard to ignore.

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Originally Posted by rookie07
The best evidence that I can give of this is, a thread about removing bristleworms has 12 responses and this thread has 4!!!! It is pathetic that a thread of this importance is virtually ignored and a silly thread like that has been given more attention. despicable!
Try pouring a 5g tank of ice and water on your head and post it Facebook. Heard that might work.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:00 AM
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It is important to distinguish the rule making and leglisative work that PIJAC is doing from the stuff that Snorkel Bob is promoting. NOAA and NMFS and even CBD don't actually care much if at all about the hobby. They are doing what they can to try to protect reef life and their agenda is not to stop the hobby - that possibility is an unfortunate side effect. This, though newer info on PIJAC is now available, is a great read: http://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2014/...ryone-to-lose/

This has all been building for over 10 years and the hobby and industry has ignored it, or trashed people that have been trying to do things about it. There is no real 'industry', rather a bunch of people/compaines that do kind of the same thing - there is no unity and no trade organization and really no hobby organization. As I said, anyone who has tried to make one gets shredded. AMDA, MAC all were demonized. I sadly have no idea what to do about that besides keep talking and hope something happens.

More about what I think is in two articles in the recent edition of reefs magazine

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/r...n-matters.html

and

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/r...selection.html
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BioMan View Post
IIn my mind it shouldn't have gotten this far to begin with, we're not trying to get a couple of pandas to make "whoopie" we're trying to reestablish a plant! (Do you ever see Marijuana going on the endangered list. ..) what can I do?
Coral are part of the animal kingdom not plant.
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Old 09-10-2014, 10:20 AM
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It is also important to distinguish between endangered in the wild and endangered in the trade. Two very different things.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:11 PM
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I contributed but this is a complex situation. The site describes its goal as to protect the right to responsibly enjoy the hobby. Is it that the aquarium trade is too fragmented to have political influence? Who determines what passes for "responsibly?" Obviously I support sustainability. Also, while collection methods may be questionable I wonder what the rationale would be for applying the same rigorous requirements on aquaculture.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NL146 View Post
I contributed but this is a complex situation. The site describes its goal as to protect the right to responsibly enjoy the hobby. Is it that the aquarium trade is too fragmented to have political influence? Who determines what passes for "responsibly?" Obviously I support sustainability. Also, while collection methods may be questionable I wonder what the rationale would be for applying the same rigorous requirements on aquaculture.
Yes it is complex. And yes, the hobby is very poorly organized when it comes to advocacy--PIJAC is really all there is-- and traditionally very reluctant to hold itself accountable for its own problems. The threat to aquaculture efforts is the unfortunate result of ESA regulations that are not designed to accommodate "alternative" sources of animals. The laws as written see endangered animals as endangered regardless of where they come from and anything designated as such will be illegal to buy, sell, trade or even own. The reason the laws are written this way is that it is just too hard to prove where an animals comes from.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:49 PM
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The other pressing Legislative issue related to the above, but different in source, scope and intent is the prosed ESA listing of Percula Clownfish as Threatened--one step below Endangered. A very balanced discussion of this issue can be found here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...or-esa-listing
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:45 PM
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There is a guy, he goes by krg-1168 on different forums. He stresses the need of captive breeding due to future restrictions, but with sharks. He compares it to parrot keeping in the 70's and 80's. Parrots, sharks or coral it has the same idea behind it.

This is a post of his from 2007.

Quote:
I'm not sure people have thought about the future of shark husbandary.

But I for one am starting to interesting parallels with between what's happening today with private sharks/rays keepers versus what happened about to private Parrot owners about 30-35 years ago.

Allow me to explain.

As example - I start by telling you what happened in the Parrot Trade about 20-30 years ago.

About 30-35 years again the mid to late 70's - parrots became very "fashionable" to own - and we're heavily imported from Africa, Australia, Central & South America. Also quite a few large Parrot breeders started to spring up around this time. About 15-20 years large scale importation was halted by many international goverments including U.S., Canada, U.K., & most the European nations. Due to the fact that the large scale importation of many parrot species in the 70's to mid 80's had drop the wild poplations of many species to dangerously low levels. Still during this same time(late 80's -early 90's) - there was also dramatic increasing in the number parrots being held for breeding stock - by private keepers. In some species there was virtually as many breeders in the U.S. as there was total birds in the wild. As a result virtually every parrot sold in any pet stop in captive breed & raised.

I know you're all asking how does what happen with the Parrot trade, have any thing to do with sharks, or breeding sharks.

Right now - we are starting to see large increase in the number of new shark keepers. With most shark species in decline. We are currently in almost exactly the same situation that happen in the Parrot trade about 25-30 years ago. Also many of the species that are best suited for home aquaria, have fairly limited ranges in the wild. So it's almost a certainty that in the next 10-20 years - we may see the end of large scale importation of many species of sharks, for private ownership. Or at very least major restrictions imposed. As some species may start to become threatened or even endangered species.

The logical solution is captive breeding programs for sharks & rays by anyone who is willing, able and has the neccesary room. This will help insure that future shark/ray keepers may have enough sharks or rays to meet the public demand. And maybe help save a few species in the process.
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:22 PM
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Well, here we go.... got REAL very fast!

https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2014...ls-is-illegal/
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